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November 9, 2008

Sunday T3REORG meetup with Jens and Kasper in Cph.

By: Rasmus Skjoldan

Just returned from a T3REORG meetup sunday morning here in Cph. Having discussed the TYPO3 video presentation idea for the front page of we need input. Please do comment on it!

(Right now I'm really annoyed with myself for forgetting to take a couple of snapz of our sunday morning event. Sorry for that!)

I have just returned home from meeting Jens Hoffmann about T3REORG here in Vanløse/Copenhagen. We met early to discuss both the video presentation of TYPO3 on the new front page and a lot of details about how to present TYPO3 in general (in other words, prioritization of elements in a video presentation).

That led to a bunch of specific GUI/HCI topics actually stemming from a deeper conversation about the future interface of TYPO3 for both 4.4 and 5.0. We're currently discussing how backend and frontend editing could work in the future and hope to bring some people together for a meeting about that specifically in the hopefully near future.

The video presentation aims to let both new developers, users of TYPO3 and decision makers (evaluating TYPO3 as choice of CMS), appreciate both the technical aspects and the social, community-rooted advantages. And in addition we'd like to see presentations about how TYPO3 relates to Open Source, GPL and specific technical features, in general.

In other words, it's a major task to do such a both technical and emotional presentation of TYPO3. The reason for prioritizing this is important, though. We feel that it's invaluable for TYPO3 to communicate more strongly about all the somewhat hidden advantages TYPO3 really has.

The work of the T3REORG project is still based on all the good work of the former team (see the video from the T3BOARD08 presentation). We're just in the process of defining which parts are essential to launch and what can be added later on.

We had a cosy brunch afterwards with Kasper, Rie and the super cute Amalie (falling down chairs and running around the café :-).

Please comment on what you would like to see included in a TYPO3 presentation video on the front of We're really eager to bridge the community pride to the needs of business decision makers checking out TYPO3 - it essentially has to be meaningful, relevant and comfortable to both. So please do give us open and honest feedback here!

And have a nice sunday everyone!


comment #1
Gravatar: andy lenz andy lenz November 9, 2008 17:45
nice and interesting to see your efforts, thx for keeping us updatet!

in additon to some shiny backend and frontend views
i´d like to see short facts and numbers like the TYPO3 claim and mission statement, community size, installation base worldwide and number of supportet languages etc. i think this kind of information is very impressive and is trusworthy for new users, developers and decision makers.

comment #2
Gravatar: Dmitry Dulepov Dmitry Dulepov November 9, 2008 20:40
Are you sure potential users will wait until video loads? Are you sure you want to show them the Backend? I think they will be scared when they see it.

Video sounds cool but usability of it is bad. Any usability specialist will tell you that people never wait on the web if they can avoid it. They want to get information quick! So they will search for screenshots, not video, which loads long.

Think what you do when you search for application? Do you go to watch video tour or you quickly check screenshot to understand if the program looks ok for you?

Video on the first page is a bad thing to do. It would be much better to have a slideshow. Silideshows load fast and can be scrolled easily. But video is definitely bad idea.

comment #3
Gravatar: Jens Jens November 9, 2008 23:06
1. I as Usability guy don't fear a video.
2. How long do you wait on a YouTube Video?
3. Will Internet connections be faster or slower?
4. Is concept for the Past or the Future?

5. How much can you communicate in 3 min by Video or Slideshow?

6. Do you know all conceptual thought, to judge it that hard?
Maybe we planed to have chapters and you could skip them?!

Sorry to be so hard. But I know you could deal well with it. :)

comment #4
Gravatar: Steffen Müller Steffen Müller November 10, 2008 08:58
Video is a good idea to have on - but why on
What purpose does has, if claims to serve all kinds of audiences?

comment #5
Gravatar: Rasmus Skjoldan Rasmus Skjoldan November 10, 2008 10:52 will be the single page you go to for most domains. A new subdomain concept will be used as direct links to different landing pages - and there will be 3 boxes that lead user to e.g. etc.

There's more to it, though - but in general, it will be one portal page with different subdomains. Unified, in other words.

comment #6
Gravatar: Karl Dall Karl Dall November 11, 2008 07:07
A quick report from my travel about the T3REORG project today will come asap

comment #7
Gravatar: Oliver Leitner Oliver Leitner November 12, 2008 16:01
Dumb question.

What is so bad with the current page, that you need to change it?

comment #8
Gravatar: Dmitry Dulepov Dmitry Dulepov November 12, 2008 20:30
Jens, you go to YouTube to watch the video. This is your primary purpose at YouTube.

You do not go to to watch the video, you go to find developer's information about this CMS. is a developer's resource, not a YouTube-like web site.

The concept is never "past" or "future", the concept is always "better presentation of information for the purpose of this web site". Read "Don't make me think" again, especially about how people look and that they never wait for pages that load long.

Again, this site is a resource for developers. Don't forget that.

Usability guy, are you loosing your touch? ;D

comment #9
Gravatar: Dmitry Dulepov Dmitry Dulepov November 12, 2008 20:33
Rasmus, do you mean that you are going to destroy this site as a developer resource? All developers will "thank" you very much.

You should at least have asked those, who use this site daily before thinking of ruining it.

comment #10
Gravatar: Rasmus Skjoldan Rasmus Skjoldan November 12, 2008 23:35
Dmitry, the video shall be something to let us be proud of TYPO3 - at the same time that it serves the very neccesary outbound needs for the online reception of TYPO3 for newcomers.

Remember, that you'll be able to go to at any time to land directly on the hardcore community site for existing developers in the community. We just really need a way to channel users much better as we have lots of non-developers landing on .org which is obviously a challenging experience for someone in the process of evaluating enterprise CMS solutions.

Thoughts on what should actually be presented? We obviously have lots and lots of ideas about this on the team - I'd just really like to hear what you think.

comment #11
Gravatar: Charles Coleman Charles Coleman November 14, 2008 17:09
Typo3's enterprise-level features are not emphasized enough. It is the many enterprise users that often bring some of the most valuable contributions to Typo3 both in code and finance. The many features we take for granted, many other CMS's out there dream of having! From LDAP and Open LDAP, the amazing range of frontend/backend permissions needed for many editors and web users, the flexibility and sheer power of Typoscript which still remains fully unchallenged and unparalled in the CMS community, the amazing ease of Typo3 and extension upgrades, and this list goes on.

As the leader in the CMS community, let's continue to draw from the very ones driving Typo3 to integrate further into the enterprise community. It is truly a gift to have software of this caliber where others are charging generously for their services. Please emphasize the enterprise features of Typo3 to encourage more enterprise users. That is why I chose it in the first place well as many many others.

comment #12
Gravatar: Rasmus Skjoldan Rasmus Skjoldan November 16, 2008 16:54
Charles, we absolutely agree on this. I think the enterprise functionality is definately TYPO3's strong point and something that does need to be presented much better! Thanks for the input.

comment #13
Gravatar: Dmitry Dulepov Dmitry Dulepov November 17, 2008 11:41
Rasmus, I understood that you want TYPO3 to be promoted better. This is a good thing to do and I am all for it. However I do not understand several other things. Could you clarify them for me, please? But before you read further I want to make clear that nothing below is meant to offend anyone. So, please, read is as questions only. There is no hidden thoughts behind :)

So, here is what troubles me.

There is, which must promote TYPO3 as CMS. It is obsolete for ages in content (not news by content organization). It is even technically obsolete by now, it uses TYPO3 version 3.8! You do not plan to touch that obsolete site.

There is developer resource,, which is very useful for developers right now and serves its purpose perfectly. You plan to change that instead.

You want to convert a developer resource ( to do what is supposed to do. For unknown reason you do not want to do it in the right place ( Why?

Shouldn't you leave to developer's needs and change obsolete instead?

Neither you, nor Jens are developers. Why are you guys trying to change something, which is out of your area of interest? was always for developers. Leave it for developers and do changes at instead! This is much more important if you want to promote TYPO3 in the world.

Developer will never thank you if you destroy the only official TYPO3 developer's resource they have right now (

So, the question is: why don't you change instead? It needs changes for years.

comment #14
Gravatar: Dmitry Dulepov Dmitry Dulepov November 17, 2008 11:46
I forgot to write: the video you describe will be a perfect thing for because is a target site for the audience you described: "new developers, users of TYPO3 and decision makers (evaluating TYPO3 as choice of CMS)".

I think what you and Jens miss is a clear distinction of the roles of these two sites. should be focused on promoting TYPO3 as CMS, should stay as a developer resource.

comment #15
Gravatar: Rasmus Skjoldan Rasmus Skjoldan November 17, 2008 13:35
Dimitry and all,

Thanks for your commitment and interest in this! I'm really happy about that!

I will try to clarify what seems to stem from either misinformation about the project's intentions or inadequate communication:

- Yes, we absolutely plan to "touch that obsolete site",, - very much so. Almost ALL sites will be integrated in - also, national sites etc. etc.

- will only be MORE useful to everyone using it and will include strong community functionality to let developers comment and interact with each other - instead of the usage silos currently existing there. Right now the only place to interact (apart from mailing lists) is here on buzz - which normally isn't _that_ active a blogging space. The only real difference to a developer will be the address: - old url's will obviously be handled well. So - you go to and get a much richer community-supporting site that enables everyone to see who does what much more clearly and to comment, interact, group etc. etc. I don't quite understand why that should be a bad thing for developers - so I'm guessing it's just a need for clarification about what the team is doing.

- We don't want to convert to do what is supposed to. By no means. Yet, on the other hand we don't want too many decision makers to land on the current as that is an inadequate experience and presentation for those. This is the case today as the distinction for an outsider is blurry.

- is not only for developers, please. It is also for designers and usability people specializing in basing their work on the TYPO3 CMS. Yet, one of the reasons there are so extremely few active designers in the TYPO3 community is exactly that only _functions_ for developers today. You are suggesting that we let still be a place only for developers. Instead we should focus on bringing more kinds of people into the center of the community: Text guys, journalists, usability experts, webdesigners, information architects, SEO specialists, project managers and TYPO3 users at all levels - to intersect with developers and enable a real sharing of thoughts, needs and ideas. In other words: We need to bridge all the extremely powerful developer work being done in TYPO3 to the rest of the aspects important to an enterprise CMS. So, please focus on the advantages this will bring to TYPO3 instead of accusing us of changing something that "isn't our place". I believe it very much is a place for everyone with interest in making TYPO3 better - just as well as I believe it is an important place online for TYPO3 developers.

And again: Thanks a lot for being this interested in the project. Please do continue to ask questions about what we're doing (and please don't accuse us of anything before you are absolutely certain that we are doing something that you are opposed to :-)

comment #16
Gravatar: Dmitry Dulepov Dmitry Dulepov November 17, 2008 22:19
By "developers" I mean also integrators, designers and usability people, not just PHP developers :) I mean everyone who develops sites using TYPO3. Essentially they are all "developers" :)

If it is not a major secret, why do you need to move parts of to Cannot additional sections be added to Is there absolutely no way to avoid making May be I just do not see the need for it as you do. If you know why it is necessary, can you tell me why? :)

I am asking because I am interested! I have no whole picture, so I am trying to understand what do you plan to do and how it will help me, a person, who comes to almost hourly 5 days/week. But I know for sure that I do not want to change my habits severely (and no one usually does). This should be taken into account, not only for me but for the majority of Internet users. No one likes to change his habits :) Compare, for example, Windows and Mac OS X. Windows changes everything with each release => people do not understand and complain. Mac OS X changes very little and people become used to it quickly because the basics change slowly. It is a good way to do changes: slowly and let people adapt to it without loosing time to discover how to do tasks they do all the time (for example, find TMENU in TSRef). Imagine the situation: I come to work, client calls, I urgently need to fix something, I go to and it tells me "The page does not exist". I will be frustrated :( I manage to find new TSRef and I see that it is proudly available as DocBook only, for which I neither have, nor ever will have a viewer. Intentions can be good but in practice they are bad if they do not take into account existing people's habbits.

I am not sure if I can express well enough what I want to say :( I'll try again in other words.

Regardless of how shiny the new site will be, if it is changes severely without fallbacks, people will not like the transition. You, guys, are professionals, so think about it, ok? Do it smooth for people :) I think it was Krug, who wrote that people never think how we think they think. The biggest lesson I got in my life is that things must not suddenly change too much. No one likes it in a long term.

The thing I really would like to change on is navigation. This is the only thing that is really terrible right now: cannot find anything. I am more or less ok with the rest, though it can be improved too.

Do you actually mind to share your plans more? I am sure you could gain a lot if you hear from people who use this site many times every day :)

comment #17
Gravatar: Fabien Udriot Fabien Udriot November 18, 2008 13:51
By reading the topic "official pronunciation of TYPO3" in the mailing list, I found interesting what Joerg Wagner suggested: having people saying the word "TYPO3" in their own language. It would enforce the idea that TYPO3 is made for / by humans spread all around the world.

From Joerg Wagner:
All these different writings and pronounciations would make up for a great PR campaign. Imagine showing the use of TYPO3 all around the world: Web and printed visuals with different writings (similar to what Coca Cola did some time ago), video/audio spot showing people from all over the world speaking the words "TYPO 3" in their respective version.

comment #18
Gravatar: Nat Pastekhova Nat Pastekhova November 20, 2008 11:10
Within the intended concept of subdomains as silos for target audience segments, where would you map these "special purpose" subdomains like which served a quite different purpose in the past?

comment #19
Gravatar: Rasmus Skjoldan Rasmus Skjoldan November 24, 2008 21:54
Like the idea about pronouncing TYPO3 a lot! I will talk to Jens about that.

@Dmitry: Sorry for not being able to explain everything - I'm just trying to get a lot of work done on the project too but I will get back to communicating as much as possible about the plans, too!

Short answer: The reason for moving the existing to is just that too many users end up in the wrong place. So we have to fix that :-)

And url's will be taken care of - as best as we possibly can.

comment #20
Gravatar: Rasmus Skjoldan Rasmus Skjoldan November 24, 2008 21:56
Concerning special purpose subdomains: We haven't decided upon all that, yet. Suggestions are welcome :-)

comment #21
Gravatar: Rasmus Skjoldan Rasmus Skjoldan November 25, 2008 00:06
Woha, just concluded a lot of the basic spec's for the currently committed agencies. That was a lot of work - but we're actually moving now :) Be happy, folks - and let me know if you would like to join the project at some stage. If so, just follow the basics at

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