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March 2, 2012
TYPO3 6.0 at the corner? How is it possible?
Category: Xavier Perseguers, Core
A major version of TYPO3 CMS has been announced and it is not the long awaited "5.0" but instead a "6.0". I try to explain how this could happen by looking at the history of the TYPO3 CMS and the famous "TYPO3 Phoenix" project.
The possible roadmap of TYPO3 (no real dates!)
As tweeted yesterday, here is some further information about mainly 3 tweets of mine (@xperseguers). This is my personal opinion and although I am member of the TYPO3 Core team, some facts may be slightly twisted.
The three tweets were:
- #TYPO3 5.0 (Phoenix) blocks v4, and cannot be successor of v4: it's a new product! Eventually it may be a "successor" but not as of now
- No rapid increase of version but let us use a new major version once big features are merged (who said "FAL"?) pic.twitter.com/JqhWsKIx
- @robertlemke: #TYPO3 Phoenix needs a good name to become a new product fitting scheme of the TYPO3 maker brand umbrella
So now some further explanations...
Quite some years ago, in 2005-2006, a small group of developers came up with the idea to basically recode TYPO3 from scratch, taking into account new needs because back then our CMS was mainly used to publish some content to the Web and that was basically all.
The team that formed around Robert Lemke and Karsten Dambekalns thought about more advanced features and realized that the need for more advanced websites, namely going towards what we now name as web applications would be more and more needed. This is how "v5" was born. Why "v5"? Because TYPO3 version was 4.1 or 4.2 and as such the next "big" version would naturally be a 5.0 version. Since then, the community used to refer to v4 or v5 for the two development branches of TYPO3.
Their enthusiasm was so big that they thought they could come up with a solution roughly 1 year later.
The Berlin Manifesto
In October 2008, the TYPO3 Core team met in Berlin to primarily discuss the roadmap for TYPO3. The point was to address some fears from agencies not really knowing when v5 would be released and if this new version would be compatible with v4. In fact, more and more clients hearing from a possible v5 at the corner, put the agencies into a difficult position of arguing that v4 was still the way to go even for new sites and that waiting a few months for the release of v5 would not make sense.
The outcome of this important meeting to clarify the future of both v4 and v5 was the so-called "Berlin Manifesto" [1]:
- TYPO3 v4 continues to be actively developed
- v4 development will continue after the the release of v5
- Future releases of v4 will see its features converge with those in TYPO3 v5
- TYPO3 v5 will be the successor to TYPO3 v4
- Migration of content from TYPO3 v4 to TYPO3 v5 will be easily possible
- TYPO3 v5 will introduce many new concepts and ideas. Learning never stops and we'll help with adequate resources to ensure a smooth transition
Over the years, it turned out that to be able to create v5, the team needed a rock-solid underlying framework. They brainstormed their specifications, evaluated loads of existing frameworks and finally decided to create their own as, at least back then, no existing framework was well-thought nor powerful enough to fit the bill. This is how FLOW3 started, as a clean base to build v5 on.
Now I want to do a first digression to point out that this is how Extbase and Fluid then emerged, after an initial attempt from Jochen Rau (who then became part of the TYPO3 Core team) to create a dedicated extension "bridge" allowing this framework to be used within v4 installs. It turned out not to be possible and Extbase and Fluid were created. We are in March 2009, in Laax during the well-known TYPO3 Snowboard Tour (T3BOARD). You can read more about that in [2].
The more the project evolved, the more the expectations raised for this v5. Perhaps you remember the exciting presentation "TYPO3 5.0 Experience Concept" [3] or the other one "TYPO3 5.0 - The taste of Phoenix" [4] for T3CON10 in Frankfurt, both presented by Jens Hoffmann? Although it is hard to remember, the codename "Phoenix" for v5 seems to be mentioned since then, in 2010.
In order to be able to turn all the beautiful mockups into HTML, CSS and JavaScript, the v5 team started to use ExtJS as the underlying JavaScript framework. And this lead the v4 to use it as well actively since the beginning of 2009 to be finally part of TYPO3 4.3.
Where we first discover that Phoenix will not be TYPO3 5.0
The v5 team pushed the ExtJS to the limits and finally figured out that they were losing much time with ExtJS. During the T3CON11 in Frankfurt, Sebastian Kurfürst and Christian Müller, both active members of the v5 team, hold the presentation "TYPO3 Phoenix - The Current State" [5] explaining how they were able to greatly speed up the User Interface development by switching from ExtJS to SproutCore (currently known as "Ember").
You may have noticed that whereas the presentation in 2010 was "TYPO3 5.0 - ..." the one from 2011 is "TYPO3 Phoenix - ...".
In fact, despite the Berlin Manifesto, the technology and moreover the architectural choices made while creating FLOW3 slowly made us, TYPO3 Core team, aware that TYPO3 Phoenix became less and less a sensible successor for v4. One of the key point is that the internal structure for the records (pages and elements of contents) is stored in Content Repository and the structure of content would be so different from v4 that a smooth upgrade path from v4 to v5 would mean a lot of effort. And we still did not have an official first release of TYPO3 Phoenix which would possibly encourage agencies to actually write such upgrade scripts.
So, while it never was really official, it became clear that the 5th point of the Berlin
Manifesto would not be met.
The problem behind the version 5.0
So why is this version 5.0 so problematic for the development of TYPO3 v4? As said, we had a TYPO3 version 4.1, 4.2 then 4.3 and the version 5.0 still not was at the corner.
The idea behind the version numbering scheme is easy, a version is composed of three parts, the major, the minor and the revision number. The revision number is used for patch-level versions of TYPO3, namely bug and security fix releases. The minor number is used whenever we want to introduce new features. Since TYPO3 4.6, we switched to a 6-month release cycle.
Our policy which first was really applied with TYPO3 4.6 is to keep a backward compatibility whenever we want to renew the API. Whenever a method or a component turns out to be outdated, we mark it as deprecated and still make sure it keeps being usable for 2 more versions, that is until TYPO3 4.x+2 where it is removed. This allows extension developers and agencies — whenever some configuration options get deprecated just as with the Rich Text Editor — to get a log of deprecation method calls and upgrade their code to be in line with the
up-to-date API.
But the major number is there to allow us to introduce breaking changes and publicly show that TYPO3 is able to evolve and introduce big new features. Having the version "5.0" reserved for the successor of v4 is a big problem because:
- It theoretically prevents us from working on big new feature (why do that when we better should help TYPO3 Phoenix be finally released.
- If ever we introduce such big new features anyway, it prevents us from making it a breaking change, forces us to keep the backward compatibility and above all, does not show that TYPO3 is able to innovate by raising up the major number.
The way to 6.0
So many people were waiting for this 5.0 that we even thought of making one of the last TYPO3 release a 5.0 just to make it clear that, in the end, yes! the upgrade path to TYPO3 5.0 was fulfilled. But we quickly forgot about it because it would not have been what people expected from the numerous presentations of v5. In fact, TYPO3 Phoenix has been somehow postponed again and again and had the effect of making the exceptation of what it would provide raise to a tremendous level.
The answer to this came thus naturally, just forget about TYPO3 5.0 as se but do not forget about TYPO3 Phoenix, I come to that later. If we forget about 5.0, just use the next major number available to finally give TYPO3 the version number it deserves!
TYPO3 4.7 will not become TYPO3 6.0, it is too late and we do not want to raise the version number just because we can. We want TYPO3 6.0 to provide some real major feature and FAL (File Abstraction Layer) really fits it. So we may expect TYPO3 4.7 to be the last version of the 4.x branch but we will see in the next few months how it goes.
What about TYPO3 Phoenix
As Phoenix is not the v5 we thought it would be, it simply will have to find an own name to be released as "Phoenix 1.0" later this year. "Phoenix 1.0" is a new CMS from the TYPO3 family but it is not a foreign new CMS either, it will share some of the key features of TYPO3 v4, for instance TypoScript. Of course, the TypoScript in "Phoenix 1.0" will be a reworked, enhanced version of what we know in v4 but just as we had parts of FLOW3 backported to v4 as Extbase (and Fluid being nearly identical in "Phoenix" and v4), we could expect parts of this new TypoScript to be backported to v4.
And this is were we may come back to the Berlin Manifesto and analyze the bullet points again:
1) TYPO3 v4 continues to be actively developed
This is true! As long as there is a need for it and "Phoenix" cannot be considered as a complete successor of TYPO3 v4 in terms of feature set, v4 will continue to be actively developed. And even then, v4 will for sure continue to be developed for a while.
2) v4 development will continue after the the release of v5
This is the case, just as I described it.
3) Future releases of v4 will see its features converge with those in TYPO3 v5
We see that since TYPO3 4.3 where features of "Phoenix" have partially been backported to v4. I heard of real-life projects that were initially created for Extbase and were then migrated to FLOW3 without real hassle. Having parts of the key features of "Phoenix" in v4 already made developers start to think the "Phoenix" way when coding their extensions.
Add to this possible partial backport of the TypoScript from "Phoenix" and integrators as well will for sure "feel at home" once they start using "Phoenix".
4) TYPO3 v5 will be the successor to TYPO3 v4
"Phoenix 1.0" will not be the successor of TYPO3 v4 in terms of feature set. But "Phoenix Y.0" certainly will be, though with some confidence for new projects solely. However, FLOW3, the underlying framework of "Phoenix 1.0" is already the successor of v4 if we consider that back to 2005-2006, Extbase and Fluid did not exist and that they already made huge improvement to the way we now develop extensions. Who would still rely on pure pibase? Not me!
5) Migration of content from TYPO3 v4 to TYPO3 v5 will be easily possible
This is little to not known but the Google Summer of Code (GSoC) initiated by the Phoenix team last year will be continued this year. Existing result of GSoC 2011 showed that valuable content such as pages, content elements and even FCEs from a TYPO3 v4 will be easy to migrate to TYPO3 "Phoenix". What will not be easy to migrate are the various plugins that one may use in a current TYPO3 website. But as said, Extbase-based extensions are said to be relatively easily migrated to FLOW3 so we really can expect websites using clean, state-of-the-art extensions to be good candidates for a smooth upgrade path towards "Phoenix".
I'm convinced that we are currently facing a real revolution in our beloved CMS and we should enjoy it! I personally was an early adopter of Extbase when it was far to be as stable and powerful as it is today and I naturally plan to be an early adopter of "Phoenix 1.0" as well.
Greetings from Laax where the T3BOARD12 is coming to the end,
Xavier Perseguers
twitter: @xperseguers
References
[1] typo3.org/development/roadmap/berlin-manifesto/
[2] docs.typo3incubator.org/ExtbaseFluidBook/_build/html/0-Introduction/1-short-history.html
[3] www.slideshare.net/wrybit/typo3-50-experience-concept
[4] www.slideshare.net/wrybit/t3con10-the-taste-of-phoenix
[5] www.slideshare.net/skurfuerst/the-current-state-of-typo3-phoenix-t3con11
comments
March 3, 2012
08:56
Hi Xavier - hi TYPO3-Project,
to be honest - I'm kinda shocked by this "news". Perhaps I will change my opinion later on when I have thought about this for a longer time - but I will give you (in representation for the whole TYPO3 team) an immediate feedback.
I've ever hated the "version" discussion. What is wrong with e.g. 4.8.1.2 if you need a smaller number (2) to reflect bug fixes and a "major" number (8) for big changes? Why go the Mozilla way? I see TYPO3 27 in a few years. Crazy. Let's remove all version numbers at all in the longterm like Mozilla has planned? Imagine you have a book for 4.5 in the shelves - would you buy it for 4.6 as well? Of course... seems to be the same product with a few changes - so what. Would you buy a book for 4.7 if 6.0 is out? Never... although just FAL was added - the rest is nearly the same. So e.g. FAL is a great architectural change - but in the scope to the whole TYPO3 paradigms it is just a small brick. I'm curious about all the TYPO3 6.0, 7.0, 8.0, 9.0 books, articles, trainings(!) out there and not to forget the certification ("Oh, you are certified for the version 7.0? That's way to old - now we have 9.0" - although this is one year later)
I do not know how it could be better to confuse our customers and the new programmer which will be part of this world. I do not understand why the whole software world seems to give more attention to numbers than in every other areas - but anyway - this is not my main problem.
My main problem is v5 which I (and thousands of other agencies) have promised to all my clients, which I (and many others) have documented that it will be released in a few years in thousands of articles and books all over the world. On argument for Extbase/Fluid was (besides of the better way of programming) to have a stable fundament for the new v5 - as this was promised by the manifesto. With this argument it was possible to convince customers (and programmers) to use it. Now this is obsolete in my opinion. If v5 (Phoenix) will be a separate product there is no need to have a bridge technology. So Extbase will go it's own way so as Phoenix (and in long term therefore FLOW3) will do.
It is a sign that a totally separate product (with - of course - some old concept names like TypoScript - but this is not rudimentally the same as the classic one) will become a separate name. But what does this mean in longterm?
- 2 competing products?
- 2 competing core teams?
- 2 competing developer worlds?
- 2 competing event worlds (T3CON, PHOECON, T3DD, PHOEDD,???)
- 2 associations?
- 2 totally independent open source projects in the end?
Many customers haven't understand the product policy which now exists (with v4 and v5, although it is easy enough) - but we will loose the understanding completely with this new way.
To be honest - I would like to see a referendum on this. As all of the members of the association have paid their money in the last years for a vision they have, they should decide the future of the TYPO3 project with a referendum. Otherwise I fear we will loose the support if we go this way without listen to them.
And - this is what I realized - we urgently need a product manager (kinda CTO) in the association besides of a CEO (but this is another venue). One person who is not involved in the development process directly but near enough to both sides - development inside the project and business to the customers. One person to lead the project technically to avoid something like this.
Best regards,
Patrick
to be honest - I'm kinda shocked by this "news". Perhaps I will change my opinion later on when I have thought about this for a longer time - but I will give you (in representation for the whole TYPO3 team) an immediate feedback.
I've ever hated the "version" discussion. What is wrong with e.g. 4.8.1.2 if you need a smaller number (2) to reflect bug fixes and a "major" number (8) for big changes? Why go the Mozilla way? I see TYPO3 27 in a few years. Crazy. Let's remove all version numbers at all in the longterm like Mozilla has planned? Imagine you have a book for 4.5 in the shelves - would you buy it for 4.6 as well? Of course... seems to be the same product with a few changes - so what. Would you buy a book for 4.7 if 6.0 is out? Never... although just FAL was added - the rest is nearly the same. So e.g. FAL is a great architectural change - but in the scope to the whole TYPO3 paradigms it is just a small brick. I'm curious about all the TYPO3 6.0, 7.0, 8.0, 9.0 books, articles, trainings(!) out there and not to forget the certification ("Oh, you are certified for the version 7.0? That's way to old - now we have 9.0" - although this is one year later)
I do not know how it could be better to confuse our customers and the new programmer which will be part of this world. I do not understand why the whole software world seems to give more attention to numbers than in every other areas - but anyway - this is not my main problem.
My main problem is v5 which I (and thousands of other agencies) have promised to all my clients, which I (and many others) have documented that it will be released in a few years in thousands of articles and books all over the world. On argument for Extbase/Fluid was (besides of the better way of programming) to have a stable fundament for the new v5 - as this was promised by the manifesto. With this argument it was possible to convince customers (and programmers) to use it. Now this is obsolete in my opinion. If v5 (Phoenix) will be a separate product there is no need to have a bridge technology. So Extbase will go it's own way so as Phoenix (and in long term therefore FLOW3) will do.
It is a sign that a totally separate product (with - of course - some old concept names like TypoScript - but this is not rudimentally the same as the classic one) will become a separate name. But what does this mean in longterm?
- 2 competing products?
- 2 competing core teams?
- 2 competing developer worlds?
- 2 competing event worlds (T3CON, PHOECON, T3DD, PHOEDD,???)
- 2 associations?
- 2 totally independent open source projects in the end?
Many customers haven't understand the product policy which now exists (with v4 and v5, although it is easy enough) - but we will loose the understanding completely with this new way.
To be honest - I would like to see a referendum on this. As all of the members of the association have paid their money in the last years for a vision they have, they should decide the future of the TYPO3 project with a referendum. Otherwise I fear we will loose the support if we go this way without listen to them.
And - this is what I realized - we urgently need a product manager (kinda CTO) in the association besides of a CEO (but this is another venue). One person who is not involved in the development process directly but near enough to both sides - development inside the project and business to the customers. One person to lead the project technically to avoid something like this.
Best regards,
Patrick
March 3, 2012
09:21
Thanks for your thoughts Patrick. I can largely agree and the fact that in one year we will have TYPO3 Phoenix, TYPO3 6.0 and FLOW3 as separate products out there makes me sceptical too. But I can't see how a referendum or an other version number system can change that. Basically I like the decision to proceed with 6.0, but the decision shows how we failed to come up with a successor for 4.x.
We failed. But we also can't throw away FLOW3 and Phoenix. They are more or less finished and out in the world and have their fans. This will split this awesome community and it makes me a sad bunny.
We failed. But we also can't throw away FLOW3 and Phoenix. They are more or less finished and out in the world and have their fans. This will split this awesome community and it makes me a sad bunny.
March 3, 2012
09:22
Hi Patrick,
thx for sharing your thoughts. Especially looking at the certification I share your concerns. Certified TYPO3 Integrator were granted the certification for the V4 branch. Will / can it be extended to TYPO3 as the system and not according to the branch?
On the other hand I do not understand it as the "Mozilla scheme". There will be a 6.1, 6.2, 6.3 etc. I either do not expect two independent projects. Probably (Hopefully!) it will like we have it already in Munich with MTUG / MFUG: Share the dates, share locations, share knowledge, have the possibilty to participate in all subprojects (TYPO3, FLOW3, Phoenix), be one community.
IMO the "old" versioning scheme implied that the 4.x releases are mainly bug fixes with minor features. There was no expression to "outsiders" that there where major enhancements ... or it 4.6 mostly the same as 4.0? So I really prefer the new versioning scheme.
Best regards,
Marcus
thx for sharing your thoughts. Especially looking at the certification I share your concerns. Certified TYPO3 Integrator were granted the certification for the V4 branch. Will / can it be extended to TYPO3 as the system and not according to the branch?
On the other hand I do not understand it as the "Mozilla scheme". There will be a 6.1, 6.2, 6.3 etc. I either do not expect two independent projects. Probably (Hopefully!) it will like we have it already in Munich with MTUG / MFUG: Share the dates, share locations, share knowledge, have the possibilty to participate in all subprojects (TYPO3, FLOW3, Phoenix), be one community.
IMO the "old" versioning scheme implied that the 4.x releases are mainly bug fixes with minor features. There was no expression to "outsiders" that there where major enhancements ... or it 4.6 mostly the same as 4.0? So I really prefer the new versioning scheme.
Best regards,
Marcus
March 3, 2012
09:25
Thanks Patrick, for providing these points from the business perspective which I full acknowledge!
March 3, 2012
09:38
The TYPO3 v5 problem seems to be rather theoretically in my mind. The explanation for the proceeding is understandable from within the community but difficult to explain to our customers, book buyers etc. Just as Patrick wrote. From this point if view I would like to see the next major release of v4 as "TYPO3 5" and the new child in town "TYPO3 Phoenix 1.0". And the long term goal should be to combine the two "branches" somewhen in the future to get one TYPO3 again!
March 3, 2012
09:58
Well, first of all: thanks for the article and the comments ;-)
I don't really have a strong opinion on the version numbering stuff, as long as customers understand it and we don't start counting backwards ;-) But we really should keep in mind what side effects this has (like the certification). FAL is a great feature... But looking back Extbase and Fluid could also have been a reason for a new major version.
So what's the value of a certification if it can be expired within a year (because a new feature is introduced in the next release?) And I can imagine other stuff (like LTS or maybe other teams) are also affected by this... So I hope this all will be taken into consideration when this is actually a decision going to be made (which is still open if I read the article well?).
I don't really have a strong opinion on the version numbering stuff, as long as customers understand it and we don't start counting backwards ;-) But we really should keep in mind what side effects this has (like the certification). FAL is a great feature... But looking back Extbase and Fluid could also have been a reason for a new major version.
So what's the value of a certification if it can be expired within a year (because a new feature is introduced in the next release?) And I can imagine other stuff (like LTS or maybe other teams) are also affected by this... So I hope this all will be taken into consideration when this is actually a decision going to be made (which is still open if I read the article well?).
March 3, 2012
10:30
What might look like a spontaneous, not well-thought-out decision just made in some days in Laax is indeed a process that was going on for pretty much one year by now (if not even longer).
In the comments above it was mentioned that this change is not good for marketing. What if I can tell you that we initialized it because of marketing? In fact this change was introduced with the big support of the marketing team:
The outside perspective of the TYPO3 project has been like "this community is not moving, it is near to death - they still hang around with version 4". Actually I heard statements like "current version is version 4, it is old and a waste of time to use it for a new project, wait for version 5" very, very often and for years.
I'd like everybody to step back and look at TYPO3 as non-community-member. Would you consider a software as agile and in a constant and fast evolution, gaining a lot of new features, inventing itself over and over again, in fact being one of the most vanguard CMSes out there, defining the state of the art, with a community as lively, if this software is at the same version number for years?
It doesn't count that everybody within the TYPO3 community is used to the fact that a step from 4.x to 4.x+1 can be considered as a major release. Because the outside world's perception is very different.
I really appretiate the change in the version numbering. This gives us the chance to raise the major version number whenever breaking new features call for this step and thus giving a signal to the world that TYPO3 is indeed THE pacemaker in the content management system market worldwide.
Great news that the decision was now made!
In the comments above it was mentioned that this change is not good for marketing. What if I can tell you that we initialized it because of marketing? In fact this change was introduced with the big support of the marketing team:
The outside perspective of the TYPO3 project has been like "this community is not moving, it is near to death - they still hang around with version 4". Actually I heard statements like "current version is version 4, it is old and a waste of time to use it for a new project, wait for version 5" very, very often and for years.
I'd like everybody to step back and look at TYPO3 as non-community-member. Would you consider a software as agile and in a constant and fast evolution, gaining a lot of new features, inventing itself over and over again, in fact being one of the most vanguard CMSes out there, defining the state of the art, with a community as lively, if this software is at the same version number for years?
It doesn't count that everybody within the TYPO3 community is used to the fact that a step from 4.x to 4.x+1 can be considered as a major release. Because the outside world's perception is very different.
I really appretiate the change in the version numbering. This gives us the chance to raise the major version number whenever breaking new features call for this step and thus giving a signal to the world that TYPO3 is indeed THE pacemaker in the content management system market worldwide.
Great news that the decision was now made!
March 3, 2012
10:46
I think skipping a version number and raising the originally intended version 4.8 to 6.0 is really fatal. Customers and people not aware of the releases and changes will be very sceptical and maybe afraid if all their Editor's manuals and so on will work. But that is just one point. There are imho not that many really great changes that do justify a version "jump" in this manner.
If you want something that is not that ridicully as that was intended to do - why not switch to something similar to the ubuntu scheme? There are so many things that are similar to ubuntu in TYPO3 ...
We have a dedicated Community Manager, Releases in April and October ...
Why not call the next TYPO3 releases TYPO3 12.04, TYPO3 12.10, TYPO3 13.04, ...?
If you want something that is not that ridicully as that was intended to do - why not switch to something similar to the ubuntu scheme? There are so many things that are similar to ubuntu in TYPO3 ...
We have a dedicated Community Manager, Releases in April and October ...
Why not call the next TYPO3 releases TYPO3 12.04, TYPO3 12.10, TYPO3 13.04, ...?
March 3, 2012
11:00
Dear Peter,
you really have discussed this important step for over one year behind closed doors? In which gremium? Association Board and Steering commitee? Or just) marketing team? Who was part of the the discussions and why are all the other (paying members of the association) not part of it? For what reasons? You (or the board) have approved budgets for projects you have already known that they will not be carried on as promised at the proposal?
So why is this discussed without the (majority of the) members of the association for such a long time? Perhaps I'm wrong - but "Perestroika" was founded to have more democratic structures inside the association and this information - sorry for that - is the pure opposite of it.
To be honest - it seems we have a realy BIG communication problem inside the TYPO3 project and we better have to solve this first than to play with version numbers.
Regards
Patrick
you really have discussed this important step for over one year behind closed doors? In which gremium? Association Board and Steering commitee? Or just) marketing team? Who was part of the the discussions and why are all the other (paying members of the association) not part of it? For what reasons? You (or the board) have approved budgets for projects you have already known that they will not be carried on as promised at the proposal?
So why is this discussed without the (majority of the) members of the association for such a long time? Perhaps I'm wrong - but "Perestroika" was founded to have more democratic structures inside the association and this information - sorry for that - is the pure opposite of it.
To be honest - it seems we have a realy BIG communication problem inside the TYPO3 project and we better have to solve this first than to play with version numbers.
Regards
Patrick
March 3, 2012
14:07
Hi to all!
maybe I am sort of confused to all the version numbers in this article and I have think about this some time. And if I think totally to the wrong direction, please correct me.
I agree to the concerns of Patrick.
But what if TYPO3 v4 development is, as written in the article and mentioned by Patrick, being continued (really continued with great features and so on :)).
I could imagine that the development for v4 is being continued for some versions like 4.8, 4.9. Nobody would be confused.
I also think that this could grow to a problem when TYPO3 Phoenix version 1.0 or whatever the name will be, is being released and developed at the same time as the v4 branch is and these products are competing.
But I also see advantages. Customers who do not want to migrate NOW can stay on the version 4 some time and think about a totally new website which is based on FLOW3 / Phoenix which may result in more work for us.
If they now would get a version 6.0 after 4.7... I'm not sure how to explain this to a customer.. :^) Especially when they really want to migrate to Phoenix some time later.
But I surely would want to have some definite point of time in the future when V4 (4.8, 4.9, etc) is not being supported anymore so agencies can talk to their customers and define some budgets for new projects.
What do you think about that?
best regards,
Sven
maybe I am sort of confused to all the version numbers in this article and I have think about this some time. And if I think totally to the wrong direction, please correct me.
I agree to the concerns of Patrick.
But what if TYPO3 v4 development is, as written in the article and mentioned by Patrick, being continued (really continued with great features and so on :)).
I could imagine that the development for v4 is being continued for some versions like 4.8, 4.9. Nobody would be confused.
I also think that this could grow to a problem when TYPO3 Phoenix version 1.0 or whatever the name will be, is being released and developed at the same time as the v4 branch is and these products are competing.
But I also see advantages. Customers who do not want to migrate NOW can stay on the version 4 some time and think about a totally new website which is based on FLOW3 / Phoenix which may result in more work for us.
If they now would get a version 6.0 after 4.7... I'm not sure how to explain this to a customer.. :^) Especially when they really want to migrate to Phoenix some time later.
But I surely would want to have some definite point of time in the future when V4 (4.8, 4.9, etc) is not being supported anymore so agencies can talk to their customers and define some budgets for new projects.
What do you think about that?
best regards,
Sven
March 3, 2012
14:16
Hi everybody,
actually I was also quite shocked about the news of bringing TYPO3 to version 6. On one hand I was shocked because of the fact that I haven't heard anything about the thoughts of doing such step, just before yesterday.
On the other hand I was shocked, because I don't see FAL as a major (visible) part for our customers to justify the version jump. Do our customers SEE this new feature as import as it would justify the 6?
Wasn't Phoenix communicated as the new and shiny TYPO3 in the past which will make things easier. I can remember showing phoenix presentations back in 2010 with aloha included. Now it seems for me that it will become delayed forerever and will get some new name somewhere in future. I fear that customers now just don't get that FLOW3 is part of the TYPO3 project, so how should they notice a "new named" CMS? Just take a look at Win XP > Win Vista > Win 7 > Win 8 - there is always Windows in it. Same is with OSX. So we should also keep TYPO3 as a brand name even for the upcoming "phoenix" release.
I must totally agree to Patrick when it comes to books, certifications, dev days, etc, but I also get the point of Peter that TYPO3 needs to show it's process in a better way.
IMHO a new major release (v6) would be justified if the customer sees its changes, has a better or at least other user experiences somehow.
TYPO3 is a content management system. Does't v6 improve the management of contents immediately after release? IMHO no. What are the benefits for our clients?
+1 for a referendum on these matters. I would love the hear the pros and cons of these decisions.
Regards,
Boris
actually I was also quite shocked about the news of bringing TYPO3 to version 6. On one hand I was shocked because of the fact that I haven't heard anything about the thoughts of doing such step, just before yesterday.
On the other hand I was shocked, because I don't see FAL as a major (visible) part for our customers to justify the version jump. Do our customers SEE this new feature as import as it would justify the 6?
Wasn't Phoenix communicated as the new and shiny TYPO3 in the past which will make things easier. I can remember showing phoenix presentations back in 2010 with aloha included. Now it seems for me that it will become delayed forerever and will get some new name somewhere in future. I fear that customers now just don't get that FLOW3 is part of the TYPO3 project, so how should they notice a "new named" CMS? Just take a look at Win XP > Win Vista > Win 7 > Win 8 - there is always Windows in it. Same is with OSX. So we should also keep TYPO3 as a brand name even for the upcoming "phoenix" release.
I must totally agree to Patrick when it comes to books, certifications, dev days, etc, but I also get the point of Peter that TYPO3 needs to show it's process in a better way.
IMHO a new major release (v6) would be justified if the customer sees its changes, has a better or at least other user experiences somehow.
TYPO3 is a content management system. Does't v6 improve the management of contents immediately after release? IMHO no. What are the benefits for our clients?
+1 for a referendum on these matters. I would love the hear the pros and cons of these decisions.
Regards,
Boris
March 3, 2012
14:17
Phoenix 1.0 - great, but why not go on with 4.9.x , 4.10.x , 4.11.x , ...?
March 3, 2012
14:36
So much about transparency of decision making!
Damn it, this is a COMMUNITY project.
What about a single notice/discussion on the Core List?
Damn it, this is a COMMUNITY project.
What about a single notice/discussion on the Core List?
March 3, 2012
14:43
Hi everybody,
related to the comment of Boris:
It is true, that customers sometimes come up with the question, "and what's the new thing in Version 4 (which customers got for years) . 5.x?"
But I always could tell customers the new features in it, or recommended to stay on for example on 4.4 and not to upgrade to 4.5 because the user would not gain any advantage out of it.
Mainly it's our job to do the consulting job, why a customer should Upgrade.
But I agree that it is difficult for customers to see what is going on with all those numbers he can't relate to main features.
So what about giving each Version like 4.6, 4.7 an own codename? Like windows XP / Vista mentioned above :P
Otherwise mac OS X is at version 10 for years not and the users mainly know what's new in version 10.6, 10.7 :)
best regards,
Sven
related to the comment of Boris:
It is true, that customers sometimes come up with the question, "and what's the new thing in Version 4 (which customers got for years) . 5.x?"
But I always could tell customers the new features in it, or recommended to stay on for example on 4.4 and not to upgrade to 4.5 because the user would not gain any advantage out of it.
Mainly it's our job to do the consulting job, why a customer should Upgrade.
But I agree that it is difficult for customers to see what is going on with all those numbers he can't relate to main features.
So what about giving each Version like 4.6, 4.7 an own codename? Like windows XP / Vista mentioned above :P
Otherwise mac OS X is at version 10 for years not and the users mainly know what's new in version 10.6, 10.7 :)
best regards,
Sven
March 3, 2012
15:09
@sven
OSX leopard, OSX snow leopard, OSX lion, OSX mountain lion - you see the major brand stays always the same - and Apple has done more then just a press release to announce the new major versions.
Just a question around, how many clients have made the move from 4.5 LTS to 4.6 yet?
I would love to see some numbers here.
Our experience is that most customers don't care in version numbers if they don't have a major advantage.
You can see the same "problem" with ie6 - now 11 years after release of ie6 we are still discussing with a few customers to move further. My major concern is, if the customer doesn't see his advantages he wouldn't make the move to a new version - even if it's better.
Regards,
Boris
OSX leopard, OSX snow leopard, OSX lion, OSX mountain lion - you see the major brand stays always the same - and Apple has done more then just a press release to announce the new major versions.
Just a question around, how many clients have made the move from 4.5 LTS to 4.6 yet?
I would love to see some numbers here.
Our experience is that most customers don't care in version numbers if they don't have a major advantage.
You can see the same "problem" with ie6 - now 11 years after release of ie6 we are still discussing with a few customers to move further. My major concern is, if the customer doesn't see his advantages he wouldn't make the move to a new version - even if it's better.
Regards,
Boris
March 3, 2012
15:45
You got to be fucking kidding me.
We (the TYPO3 community) already lost a LOT of huge budgets due to the weird naming schemes and now you come up with THIS?
Who decides things like this?
And upon what reasons?
Marketing?
I call BS.
The problem is not that the number ain't increasing, it is that people PROMISED a fricking rewrite which takes ages to come.
You simply take the descision-makers for idiots since you try to apply fresh paint (new version numbers) to old stuff.
I beg you on my knees... DO NOT DO IT, you're just making things worse.
We (the TYPO3 community) already lost a LOT of huge budgets due to the weird naming schemes and now you come up with THIS?
Who decides things like this?
And upon what reasons?
Marketing?
I call BS.
The problem is not that the number ain't increasing, it is that people PROMISED a fricking rewrite which takes ages to come.
You simply take the descision-makers for idiots since you try to apply fresh paint (new version numbers) to old stuff.
I beg you on my knees... DO NOT DO IT, you're just making things worse.
March 3, 2012
15:50
Thanks for the summary, Xavier.
Initial thoughts: WTF? When and why did this happen?
But after raging out a bit, let me calm down and say:
Do not let an adopted idiosyncrasy such as "v4" and "v5" determine that no, we simply cannot and should not use the 5.0 version numbering for the next big update to TYPO3. An idiosyncrasy about a piece of alpha software - the mythical Phoenix - is not a good reason to stir things up like this.
I agree with every concern Patrick has raised and I just plain do not want to see the versions increase like that. I also - sadly - agree with the last part by Patric about the communication. I am simply amazed that this is being done this way.
We are an open source CMS, community driven - we are NOT a consumer operating system that needs to make new signs with a big, higher-than-last-year number on it. Also, I really hope TYPO3 end users are able to recognize innovation without the huge single-digit visual aid.
I must say, this decision doesn't sit well with me. Not well at all... it sounds like a community-disconnected marketing ploy that some boss upstrais came up with and has now set into full motion. I don't like this direction.
Cheers,
Claus
Initial thoughts: WTF? When and why did this happen?
But after raging out a bit, let me calm down and say:
Do not let an adopted idiosyncrasy such as "v4" and "v5" determine that no, we simply cannot and should not use the 5.0 version numbering for the next big update to TYPO3. An idiosyncrasy about a piece of alpha software - the mythical Phoenix - is not a good reason to stir things up like this.
I agree with every concern Patrick has raised and I just plain do not want to see the versions increase like that. I also - sadly - agree with the last part by Patric about the communication. I am simply amazed that this is being done this way.
We are an open source CMS, community driven - we are NOT a consumer operating system that needs to make new signs with a big, higher-than-last-year number on it. Also, I really hope TYPO3 end users are able to recognize innovation without the huge single-digit visual aid.
I must say, this decision doesn't sit well with me. Not well at all... it sounds like a community-disconnected marketing ploy that some boss upstrais came up with and has now set into full motion. I don't like this direction.
Cheers,
Claus
March 3, 2012
16:19
Hi,
since the announcement of v5 I always saw major changes to happen in the second version number segment. I would have expected a 4.12.x version somewhen.
I can see the problem, that progress of a software product is somehow connected to the major version number.
I also agree, that big expectations are now bound to the v5 that cannot be met when Phoenix is isolated.
But is a higher version number not bound to the same expectations?
Apple and Google place minor changes in major version numbers (referring to their browsers). It looks better in the press, that's right. But for how long will people care?
I see agencies requiering the LTS version. From a support perspective this is a good decision because only little maintenence effort is necessary for a long term. Upgrading from LTS to the next LTS might require more effort than going with all the steps in between (when looking at a single step).
I could imagine major version jumps between the LTS versions. The upcoming LTS brings new, stable features that have been used and tested by early adopters and are mature by the time the LTS is released.
4.7
6 LTS
6.0.x
6.1.x
6.2.x
7 LTS
7.0.x
7.1.x
...
Best regards,
Rüdiger
since the announcement of v5 I always saw major changes to happen in the second version number segment. I would have expected a 4.12.x version somewhen.
I can see the problem, that progress of a software product is somehow connected to the major version number.
I also agree, that big expectations are now bound to the v5 that cannot be met when Phoenix is isolated.
But is a higher version number not bound to the same expectations?
Apple and Google place minor changes in major version numbers (referring to their browsers). It looks better in the press, that's right. But for how long will people care?
I see agencies requiering the LTS version. From a support perspective this is a good decision because only little maintenence effort is necessary for a long term. Upgrading from LTS to the next LTS might require more effort than going with all the steps in between (when looking at a single step).
I could imagine major version jumps between the LTS versions. The upcoming LTS brings new, stable features that have been used and tested by early adopters and are mature by the time the LTS is released.
4.7
6 LTS
6.0.x
6.1.x
6.2.x
7 LTS
7.0.x
7.1.x
...
Best regards,
Rüdiger
March 3, 2012
18:16
I really feel bad about this.
I warned about this already in 2007. I was a member of the Board and 5.0 was already three years into development. Eh Flow3 was, 5.0 was nowhere to be found.
Then I made it clear that we could not leave development of such an important project two a few people without any roadmap, functional design, technical design, architecture and so on. No contracts, no milestones and deliverables, nothing.
I also didn't like the whole idea of 'meritocracy' which the T3A was based on. I thought it was bullshit and thought it was just a mild form of dictatorship. So I also insisted on transparency and democracy. I also had the opinion that in a fresh and vivid community people should stick to their position more then two, maybe three years or so. There's a lot of scientific research about why this is bad. People stick to their positions getting used to power and stop listening.
I also found it even illegal to spend the T3A money on Flow3. If you read the (now old) Bylaws, the you will find that the T3A was erected to nurture and foster the TYPO3 CMS. There is not a single word in the Bylaws about development of a generic PHP framework. This was also a ridiculous idea to do and someone should have stopped this. But none did.
Well hell, I was alone in this position so I got arguments with everybody and felt isolated in my position, nobody in the board, in the Steering Committee nor in the Active Members gave me REAL support or backed me up. I was treated like a trouble maker.
In fact, since 2004 everybody who did not agree with how thing went within the T3A was treated as such and kind of expelled. You get the tar and feathers treatment.
So I left the T3A Board wit much disillusion. Having been an active community member since 2000, involved in many many teams and having donated programming hours to the core team with a market value of about € 200.000,- this didn't feel very good.
The day Kasper left the community it all changed. No matter if they made him show up every time, it all changed. And I'm not the only one feeling like this, that's why I still have a lot of good friends in the TYPO3 world, tough lots of them are not part of the community as such.
And now it's 2012 and you're going to bypass 5.0 and make 4.x 6.0??
ARE YOU OF YOUR MIND???
Since 2004:
- about € 800.000,- of community money has been spend on Flow3
- TYPO3 market share has dropped over 10% each year, from an open source leader we are marginalized to position 17 or so in the CMS world.
- about €80.000,- has been spent on 'operation Peristrojka' to make the T3A a bit more democratic and transparent? That should be for free!
- about €85.000,- a year is spend on a community manager and for 'evangelization' because there was so much trouble between the teams. Where is the result?
- all the same figure heads are in place since 2004!!! How can you be in position in a open source project for that long?? it's just that they've build there complete company strategy around their T3A positions.
And the result?
- NO 5.0
- TYPO3 from active CMS in 22 countries to 6 countries!
- a divided community
FAIL
SOLUTION
1. Those responsible for this mess have to go. That means at least everybody that was involved in the foundation of the T3A and voted for all these stupid decisions that wasted the money and brought us nothing. You made this mess, you are responsible, JUST GO. You're acting like bankers you know.
2. The 5.0 team and the 4.X team should be merged into one development team with a new team leader who is a real team manager. Robert has to be replaced by a real CTO. This new team will only maintain the current version and will put all effort in finishing 5.0.
3. The T3A must move from Switzerland to a place more central in Europe, like Bruxelles. This will make the project more international immediately. Also the very stupid structure they now have erected must be teared apart. Just needed is a simple European Association in its original legal form with a democraticly elected Board, a development team, an event team and a marketing & communication team. That's all that's needed, leave the rest to the community and the free market.
Yea people this might feel like a revolution and change is a scary thing. But as they say in our country: "Gentle doctors make stinking wounds" and this patient needs a life dating operation.
Yours truly,
Sander Vogels
C.E.O. Netcreators.com
I warned about this already in 2007. I was a member of the Board and 5.0 was already three years into development. Eh Flow3 was, 5.0 was nowhere to be found.
Then I made it clear that we could not leave development of such an important project two a few people without any roadmap, functional design, technical design, architecture and so on. No contracts, no milestones and deliverables, nothing.
I also didn't like the whole idea of 'meritocracy' which the T3A was based on. I thought it was bullshit and thought it was just a mild form of dictatorship. So I also insisted on transparency and democracy. I also had the opinion that in a fresh and vivid community people should stick to their position more then two, maybe three years or so. There's a lot of scientific research about why this is bad. People stick to their positions getting used to power and stop listening.
I also found it even illegal to spend the T3A money on Flow3. If you read the (now old) Bylaws, the you will find that the T3A was erected to nurture and foster the TYPO3 CMS. There is not a single word in the Bylaws about development of a generic PHP framework. This was also a ridiculous idea to do and someone should have stopped this. But none did.
Well hell, I was alone in this position so I got arguments with everybody and felt isolated in my position, nobody in the board, in the Steering Committee nor in the Active Members gave me REAL support or backed me up. I was treated like a trouble maker.
In fact, since 2004 everybody who did not agree with how thing went within the T3A was treated as such and kind of expelled. You get the tar and feathers treatment.
So I left the T3A Board wit much disillusion. Having been an active community member since 2000, involved in many many teams and having donated programming hours to the core team with a market value of about € 200.000,- this didn't feel very good.
The day Kasper left the community it all changed. No matter if they made him show up every time, it all changed. And I'm not the only one feeling like this, that's why I still have a lot of good friends in the TYPO3 world, tough lots of them are not part of the community as such.
And now it's 2012 and you're going to bypass 5.0 and make 4.x 6.0??
ARE YOU OF YOUR MIND???
Since 2004:
- about € 800.000,- of community money has been spend on Flow3
- TYPO3 market share has dropped over 10% each year, from an open source leader we are marginalized to position 17 or so in the CMS world.
- about €80.000,- has been spent on 'operation Peristrojka' to make the T3A a bit more democratic and transparent? That should be for free!
- about €85.000,- a year is spend on a community manager and for 'evangelization' because there was so much trouble between the teams. Where is the result?
- all the same figure heads are in place since 2004!!! How can you be in position in a open source project for that long?? it's just that they've build there complete company strategy around their T3A positions.
And the result?
- NO 5.0
- TYPO3 from active CMS in 22 countries to 6 countries!
- a divided community
FAIL
SOLUTION
1. Those responsible for this mess have to go. That means at least everybody that was involved in the foundation of the T3A and voted for all these stupid decisions that wasted the money and brought us nothing. You made this mess, you are responsible, JUST GO. You're acting like bankers you know.
2. The 5.0 team and the 4.X team should be merged into one development team with a new team leader who is a real team manager. Robert has to be replaced by a real CTO. This new team will only maintain the current version and will put all effort in finishing 5.0.
3. The T3A must move from Switzerland to a place more central in Europe, like Bruxelles. This will make the project more international immediately. Also the very stupid structure they now have erected must be teared apart. Just needed is a simple European Association in its original legal form with a democraticly elected Board, a development team, an event team and a marketing & communication team. That's all that's needed, leave the rest to the community and the free market.
Yea people this might feel like a revolution and change is a scary thing. But as they say in our country: "Gentle doctors make stinking wounds" and this patient needs a life dating operation.
Yours truly,
Sander Vogels
C.E.O. Netcreators.com
March 3, 2012
18:25
Bottomline:
Don't let developers handle business descisions, they obviously can't.
Just like business people should not be in charge of writing code.
Don't let developers handle business descisions, they obviously can't.
Just like business people should not be in charge of writing code.
March 3, 2012
18:33
hi patrick, just to clear this fact: this was never discussed in any board meeting or the board list of the typo3 association. besides this @xavier: i really like your article, it gives a good historical overview and also how the situation changed over time and was validated by the reality. this makes it possible to form ones opinion. cheers gina
March 3, 2012
20:00
@Sander
Wow, what a speech.
That more or less sounds like an open letter to the TYPO3 Association.
Wow, what a speech.
That more or less sounds like an open letter to the TYPO3 Association.
March 3, 2012
20:02
Hi Patrick,
a pity that you couldn't stay longer in Laax. A lot of people got to know about these changes and I heard nobody crying. So maybe it would have been easier, if you would also have heard it through spoken word. And it probably has to settle a bit, until you (will hopefully) like the idea.
On the other hand, I can understand that you're a bit shocked. I felt the same, when the Steering Committee suggested to us (= Core Team) such changes, but going even a bit further (doing the Mozilla Fast Version Numbering + Renaming TYPO3v4 to "TYPO3 $someName" and Phoenix to "TYPO3 $someOtherName".
As most of us couldn't agree with this, the now made announcement is the result of an agreement of most of the involved people.
So these changes have been decided within the Steering Committee, Core Teams, and also Marketing team was involved.
* As pointed out by Xavier, we do not increase version numbers just "because we can". If FAL would have been included in 4.7, it would have been very unlikely that the October release would have been 6.0. But given the fact that we will have FAL, we already have one really major feature, which changes a lot of things in TYPO3. And you can be sure that there will be more new features
* A new major version is extremely important, as we're not able to change some things gracefully (with deprecation). An example could be comma-separated lists in databases. We can't introduce M:M tables without breaking extensions. A 6.0 gives us the opportunity to finally do such "radical" changes.
* We get 2 products/core teams/dev days/ associations: Look at my signature! We have different teems, that's a fact! We have different tracks for different products at T3CON, DevDays etc., separate budgets, ... As said by Marcus, you already have MFUG/MTUG in parallel. So this separation isn't new, it was really extremely overdue to say this officially!
* Yes, TYPO3 and "Phoenix" will compete with each other. Advantages will be on TYPO3 side in the beginning and move towards "Phoenix", which will make TYPO3 CMS less important. Just replace the names in the Berlin manifesto. Nothing changed.
* In contrast: Do you think you can convince a client to build his site in v4, if a v5 is released? Will he think, you're competent? Or does it look like you're not up to date? Having separate products makes it easier to argument and use the best-fitting for the implementation.
* It would be really nice, if the people freaking out here (Markus, Mathias) would post their full name. Otherwise we can't really take you serious, sorry.
* I really hope that a Phoenix release (beta at least) is out, until we release the 6.0. It makes it easier to re-tell this story again and say: "The v5 was skipped as it has a negative touch for us - but see, the promised product can be downloaded [here]. So here comes your v6 (be careful, it will break some of your extensions)".
* Rüdiger: The release of a new major version is the *worst* point of time to call it LTS! New major versions include breaking changes, major refactorings, and new bugs of course (at least I expect it..). So an LTS only makes sense, when you're on a stable basis. The next LTS should be 6.1 or 6.2 (one release cycle before support for 4.5 ends). We won't change anything about this.
I hope this makes at least some of your points more clear.
Steffen Gebert
--
TYPO3 v4 Core Team Member
a pity that you couldn't stay longer in Laax. A lot of people got to know about these changes and I heard nobody crying. So maybe it would have been easier, if you would also have heard it through spoken word. And it probably has to settle a bit, until you (will hopefully) like the idea.
On the other hand, I can understand that you're a bit shocked. I felt the same, when the Steering Committee suggested to us (= Core Team) such changes, but going even a bit further (doing the Mozilla Fast Version Numbering + Renaming TYPO3v4 to "TYPO3 $someName" and Phoenix to "TYPO3 $someOtherName".
As most of us couldn't agree with this, the now made announcement is the result of an agreement of most of the involved people.
So these changes have been decided within the Steering Committee, Core Teams, and also Marketing team was involved.
* As pointed out by Xavier, we do not increase version numbers just "because we can". If FAL would have been included in 4.7, it would have been very unlikely that the October release would have been 6.0. But given the fact that we will have FAL, we already have one really major feature, which changes a lot of things in TYPO3. And you can be sure that there will be more new features
* A new major version is extremely important, as we're not able to change some things gracefully (with deprecation). An example could be comma-separated lists in databases. We can't introduce M:M tables without breaking extensions. A 6.0 gives us the opportunity to finally do such "radical" changes.
* We get 2 products/core teams/dev days/ associations: Look at my signature! We have different teems, that's a fact! We have different tracks for different products at T3CON, DevDays etc., separate budgets, ... As said by Marcus, you already have MFUG/MTUG in parallel. So this separation isn't new, it was really extremely overdue to say this officially!
* Yes, TYPO3 and "Phoenix" will compete with each other. Advantages will be on TYPO3 side in the beginning and move towards "Phoenix", which will make TYPO3 CMS less important. Just replace the names in the Berlin manifesto. Nothing changed.
* In contrast: Do you think you can convince a client to build his site in v4, if a v5 is released? Will he think, you're competent? Or does it look like you're not up to date? Having separate products makes it easier to argument and use the best-fitting for the implementation.
* It would be really nice, if the people freaking out here (Markus, Mathias) would post their full name. Otherwise we can't really take you serious, sorry.
* I really hope that a Phoenix release (beta at least) is out, until we release the 6.0. It makes it easier to re-tell this story again and say: "The v5 was skipped as it has a negative touch for us - but see, the promised product can be downloaded [here]. So here comes your v6 (be careful, it will break some of your extensions)".
* Rüdiger: The release of a new major version is the *worst* point of time to call it LTS! New major versions include breaking changes, major refactorings, and new bugs of course (at least I expect it..). So an LTS only makes sense, when you're on a stable basis. The next LTS should be 6.1 or 6.2 (one release cycle before support for 4.5 ends). We won't change anything about this.
I hope this makes at least some of your points more clear.
Steffen Gebert
--
TYPO3 v4 Core Team Member
March 3, 2012
20:09
Lots of valid comments have been posted.
Personally I think that a major version number 5x should only be taken with a new or at least massively reworked user interface that will take some time. But love must be invested in the v4 interface and there is no need to wait for phoenix or FLOW3 or anything else to work on the interface - so this process should be untangled from the phoenix developement. Here phoenix blocks the v4 progress. Idea: Let us put most layout concepts on top of version4.
Also I think that an additional certification for extbase/fluid in sense of "TYPO3 Certified Developer v4" absolutely makes sense. This could have come earlier but anytime is fine.
Personally I think that a major version number 5x should only be taken with a new or at least massively reworked user interface that will take some time. But love must be invested in the v4 interface and there is no need to wait for phoenix or FLOW3 or anything else to work on the interface - so this process should be untangled from the phoenix developement. Here phoenix blocks the v4 progress. Idea: Let us put most layout concepts on top of version4.
Also I think that an additional certification for extbase/fluid in sense of "TYPO3 Certified Developer v4" absolutely makes sense. This could have come earlier but anytime is fine.
March 3, 2012
20:52
people around longer than a couple of years know who I am.
But if you base your descision whether to take such comments seriously on full names, here you go:
Mathias Schreiber
Part of the T3 community since the mailing list was 25 people big
Former active member of the T3A
Host of the metaDev meering in...um.... 2003?
Do you see yourself capable of replying to my points now?
Thank you
But if you base your descision whether to take such comments seriously on full names, here you go:
Mathias Schreiber
Part of the T3 community since the mailing list was 25 people big
Former active member of the T3A
Host of the metaDev meering in...um.... 2003?
Do you see yourself capable of replying to my points now?
Thank you
March 3, 2012
21:14
Hi Matthes,
as said by Peter:
> In fact this change was introduced with the big support of the marketing team
So it's not a developer-only decision.
Steffen
as said by Peter:
> In fact this change was introduced with the big support of the marketing team
So it's not a developer-only decision.
Steffen
March 3, 2012
22:37
Once we were a community, Typo3 was the product we loved and Kasper was our king. Then on the Snowboard tour in 2004, suddenly out of nowhere, six guys announced that now there was a Typo3 association which was the owner of Typo3. These six guys were the boss of this association and everybody had to comply to their rule.
Which is still the case as this announcement proves. 'Big support of the marketing team'??? VOTED BY THE MEMBERS should be the case, not of some team consisting of the usual suspects from the big typo3 companies running the association, AOE, CS2, Punkt.de and so on please do we have to take this serious? Pay €10.000,- and you get to decide how the release schedule of Typo3 will be. Still no transparency, still no democracy. And after eight years still no product. Shame on you who.
Which is still the case as this announcement proves. 'Big support of the marketing team'??? VOTED BY THE MEMBERS should be the case, not of some team consisting of the usual suspects from the big typo3 companies running the association, AOE, CS2, Punkt.de and so on please do we have to take this serious? Pay €10.000,- and you get to decide how the release schedule of Typo3 will be. Still no transparency, still no democracy. And after eight years still no product. Shame on you who.
March 3, 2012
23:13
I wrote a rather long post but it's getting ignored anyways.
Quot erat demonstrandum.
Thinking about the current status of the Phoenix backend I am pretty certain we will get a very sophisticated JavaScript framework within the next 4-6 years :)
Quot erat demonstrandum.
Thinking about the current status of the Phoenix backend I am pretty certain we will get a very sophisticated JavaScript framework within the next 4-6 years :)
March 3, 2012
23:17
Wow, a lot of opinions and also some strong ones!
Some mention a fear for a fast numbering scheme like Firefox currently has. There are a lot of people against such a scheme; I don't expect a very fast numbering scheme to happen at all.
The main reason for allowing major version numbers for the current TYPO3v4 product is that [some new name] (working name "Phoenix") has slowly become a different product. The whole thing started as a technical rewrite of functionally the same CMS as TYPO3. The world and the web have changed a lot during the past years. Even the concepts of "5.0" / "Phoenix" have changed from a desktop-like application to a web-app.
Calling [some new name] "5.0" would now be confusing. [some new name] is certainly *not* a new upgrade from TYPO3 4.x. I will take more than just an upgrade wizard to get your site working in [some new name]. TYPO3 extensions will not workin [some new name], etc.
It is logical to me to have a separate name for [some new name] and call TYPO3v4 just "TYPO3".
The cooperation between both core teams will become tighter in the near future. Extbase and Fluid in TYPO3 are a big testing area for the FLOW3 concepts. Bugfixes and missing features in Extbase will be migrated to FLOW3 and vice versa.
[some new name] will borrow concepts from TYPO3 and some parts will be developed for both products.
For clients it will be clearer: a current website can be upgraded to a new version of TYPO3. This will take more or less effort depending on the jump in version numbers. If a whole new website will be made (and [some new name] is feature complete and stable) it could be build in [some new name] instead of TYPO3. By then there will be possibilities to migrate the content to [some new name].
Having major version numbers back for TYPO3 will make it easier to indicate the impact of a new version. Now it seems that all 4.x versions have the same impact.
The "5.0" version is another issue. Now that [some new name] will have a name of its own and TYPO3v4 is simply called TYPO3 again there is the question what we will do with the so often communicated, magical number "5.0". The easiest solution is just skip it.
Using it as the new major version of TYPO3 will make it even harder to communicate.
I think an important step now is to think about a good name for [some new name]. I personally think that a name which ends in "3" will be a nice addition to the TYPO3, FLOW3, ... theme.
Some mention a fear for a fast numbering scheme like Firefox currently has. There are a lot of people against such a scheme; I don't expect a very fast numbering scheme to happen at all.
The main reason for allowing major version numbers for the current TYPO3v4 product is that [some new name] (working name "Phoenix") has slowly become a different product. The whole thing started as a technical rewrite of functionally the same CMS as TYPO3. The world and the web have changed a lot during the past years. Even the concepts of "5.0" / "Phoenix" have changed from a desktop-like application to a web-app.
Calling [some new name] "5.0" would now be confusing. [some new name] is certainly *not* a new upgrade from TYPO3 4.x. I will take more than just an upgrade wizard to get your site working in [some new name]. TYPO3 extensions will not workin [some new name], etc.
It is logical to me to have a separate name for [some new name] and call TYPO3v4 just "TYPO3".
The cooperation between both core teams will become tighter in the near future. Extbase and Fluid in TYPO3 are a big testing area for the FLOW3 concepts. Bugfixes and missing features in Extbase will be migrated to FLOW3 and vice versa.
[some new name] will borrow concepts from TYPO3 and some parts will be developed for both products.
For clients it will be clearer: a current website can be upgraded to a new version of TYPO3. This will take more or less effort depending on the jump in version numbers. If a whole new website will be made (and [some new name] is feature complete and stable) it could be build in [some new name] instead of TYPO3. By then there will be possibilities to migrate the content to [some new name].
Having major version numbers back for TYPO3 will make it easier to indicate the impact of a new version. Now it seems that all 4.x versions have the same impact.
The "5.0" version is another issue. Now that [some new name] will have a name of its own and TYPO3v4 is simply called TYPO3 again there is the question what we will do with the so often communicated, magical number "5.0". The easiest solution is just skip it.
Using it as the new major version of TYPO3 will make it even harder to communicate.
I think an important step now is to think about a good name for [some new name]. I personally think that a name which ends in "3" will be a nice addition to the TYPO3, FLOW3, ... theme.
March 4, 2012
09:29
I'd like to know who is Benny - just to talk to you.
Further more: It is ok to critizise. But think of these facts:
1) One disqualifies him-/herself if you just mix up facts in a way that they please.
2) You disqualify yourself if you tend to use "destructive" wording.
3) If 1+2 is not enough by themselves you are absolutely disqualified and close to "troll" level if you have not the courage and decency to introduce / identify correctly here (ie. full name).
I love a great discussion and exchange of povs but I will not reply to ANY comments where the author disqualifies him-/herself by either 1 or 2 or 3 or even all of these.
*************
Just to clear up some facts about the version numbering here:
1) The marketing team gave a recommendation for the version numbering. No decision.
2) The steering committee (which does not exist anymore) made up a good plan on how to deal with the version numbering and communicated this to the core dev teams.
3) The core dev teams discussed this issue and *they finally decided* to go this way (actually not before adapting the plannings as they feel, is the right way).
I am sorry to say that all of you "T3A is evel because they decide behind closed doors" therefore have proven wrong. This was a community decision.
*************
For me: I really feel ashamed about some of the comments I had to read here, especially if they attack big supporters in a way which is totally not justified (as proven above = community decision). I'd like to see a community where discussion is welcomed but comments like these from "Benny" are anwered with renunciation. From everybody here. Because such comments are just good for one thing: They actually do not help but harm the TYPO3 project in a very bad way. Nobody here who is in favour for TYPO3 should tolerate statements like these.
All of you a nice sunday!
Further more: It is ok to critizise. But think of these facts:
1) One disqualifies him-/herself if you just mix up facts in a way that they please.
2) You disqualify yourself if you tend to use "destructive" wording.
3) If 1+2 is not enough by themselves you are absolutely disqualified and close to "troll" level if you have not the courage and decency to introduce / identify correctly here (ie. full name).
I love a great discussion and exchange of povs but I will not reply to ANY comments where the author disqualifies him-/herself by either 1 or 2 or 3 or even all of these.
*************
Just to clear up some facts about the version numbering here:
1) The marketing team gave a recommendation for the version numbering. No decision.
2) The steering committee (which does not exist anymore) made up a good plan on how to deal with the version numbering and communicated this to the core dev teams.
3) The core dev teams discussed this issue and *they finally decided* to go this way (actually not before adapting the plannings as they feel, is the right way).
I am sorry to say that all of you "T3A is evel because they decide behind closed doors" therefore have proven wrong. This was a community decision.
*************
For me: I really feel ashamed about some of the comments I had to read here, especially if they attack big supporters in a way which is totally not justified (as proven above = community decision). I'd like to see a community where discussion is welcomed but comments like these from "Benny" are anwered with renunciation. From everybody here. Because such comments are just good for one thing: They actually do not help but harm the TYPO3 project in a very bad way. Nobody here who is in favour for TYPO3 should tolerate statements like these.
All of you a nice sunday!
March 4, 2012
10:14
@Peter - the "community" is much more than the marketing and core dev teams, don't you agree? And do you not see that there is a communication problem, since such a decision comes as a complete surprise to everybody - including key persons in for example Extbase, persons who are responsible for bridging exactly the gap that is now being made wider and wider still?
@Jigal - I do not agree that using "5.0" for the next major version will cause confusion. See below.
@all: As I already touched on earlier, the whole "v5" is an idiosyncrasy used by the community - and should be very easy to clear up. I can do it now:
"Dear TYPO3 users - FLOW3 and Phoenix is no longer TYPO3."
There, wasn't that easy? Now nobody will ever expect that Phoenix will be version 5.0 of TYPO3. And there will be no need to change the versioning schemes and no more need to make excuses while Phoenix becomes less and less like TYPO3 and TYPO3 still does not become more and more like Phoenix.
And then it would also be clear to the Phoenix sponsors what they are getting out of their investment. Something not TYPO3.
@Jigal - I do not agree that using "5.0" for the next major version will cause confusion. See below.
@all: As I already touched on earlier, the whole "v5" is an idiosyncrasy used by the community - and should be very easy to clear up. I can do it now:
"Dear TYPO3 users - FLOW3 and Phoenix is no longer TYPO3."
There, wasn't that easy? Now nobody will ever expect that Phoenix will be version 5.0 of TYPO3. And there will be no need to change the versioning schemes and no more need to make excuses while Phoenix becomes less and less like TYPO3 and TYPO3 still does not become more and more like Phoenix.
And then it would also be clear to the Phoenix sponsors what they are getting out of their investment. Something not TYPO3.
March 4, 2012
10:16
Hi to all,
first, thanks for all of your input.
Even if I *personally* think some of your criticism against the association and the handling of development of FLOW3 and "Phoenix" are valid - especially when at comes to uncontrolled spending of money (Sanders post) I do not think that this blog post and its contents is the valid point to rant at.
We should look at things different: The TYPO3 v4 team announces to develop it product more far. Your beloved product can evolve in a new matter.
For years we did not do breaking changes because we had no major release - now we as the v4 team take the opportunity and tell: "Well to us Phoenix cannot become a successor of v4 in near future, we do not wait anymore and improve our product on our own."
OK, this may sound cruel to what has been developed the last years - but it became another product. It's a great product, I love FLOW3, but it is not what TYPO3 v4 is about.
Anyhow, the discussion if it was right to spend the money or try to to build "v5" does not belong to this decision.
We as v4 team have ideas. And the past showed us that aiming for to high goals results in failing will prevent us from putting thousands of things into a 6.0.
We will walk in small steps instead of one big: But the result of this is: There will be steps.
Anyhow I really appreciate all your input. Many of your points are valid and have been discussed already. But sometimes you need to take a decision to start into a new area.
To me it would be great, If we could join our forces to take the opportunities and possibilities of this change to TYPO3 v4 and make them happen in the future - instead of looking at the back. We cannot change the past - even if there might have been wrong decisions. But we can team up for a greater future.
Just my 2 cents of *personal opinion*
regards
Steffen Ritter
first, thanks for all of your input.
Even if I *personally* think some of your criticism against the association and the handling of development of FLOW3 and "Phoenix" are valid - especially when at comes to uncontrolled spending of money (Sanders post) I do not think that this blog post and its contents is the valid point to rant at.
We should look at things different: The TYPO3 v4 team announces to develop it product more far. Your beloved product can evolve in a new matter.
For years we did not do breaking changes because we had no major release - now we as the v4 team take the opportunity and tell: "Well to us Phoenix cannot become a successor of v4 in near future, we do not wait anymore and improve our product on our own."
OK, this may sound cruel to what has been developed the last years - but it became another product. It's a great product, I love FLOW3, but it is not what TYPO3 v4 is about.
Anyhow, the discussion if it was right to spend the money or try to to build "v5" does not belong to this decision.
We as v4 team have ideas. And the past showed us that aiming for to high goals results in failing will prevent us from putting thousands of things into a 6.0.
We will walk in small steps instead of one big: But the result of this is: There will be steps.
Anyhow I really appreciate all your input. Many of your points are valid and have been discussed already. But sometimes you need to take a decision to start into a new area.
To me it would be great, If we could join our forces to take the opportunities and possibilities of this change to TYPO3 v4 and make them happen in the future - instead of looking at the back. We cannot change the past - even if there might have been wrong decisions. But we can team up for a greater future.
Just my 2 cents of *personal opinion*
regards
Steffen Ritter
March 4, 2012
10:26
So if I can sum this up.
You're basically saying you're giving up on Phoenix being a direct successor of TYPOv4 and would like to evolve and put more efforts into the creation of new versions of the TYPO3v4 as we know and love it.
I'm fine with that and I agree with Claus that you really could use v5 for that no need to skip to v6. Just call Phoenix TYPO3 NG, NT or whatever.
What I don't like is to make v4.8 the new 6.0 just because it's the next one coming. If you want a new major version for breaking changes then put more effort into it. Releasing v5.0 or 6.0 makes only sense if there is more new to it then just FAL. I would expect some breaking changes to be introduced in 6.0 otherwise it makes NO SENSE to call it 6.0. Just my humble opinion
You're basically saying you're giving up on Phoenix being a direct successor of TYPOv4 and would like to evolve and put more efforts into the creation of new versions of the TYPO3v4 as we know and love it.
I'm fine with that and I agree with Claus that you really could use v5 for that no need to skip to v6. Just call Phoenix TYPO3 NG, NT or whatever.
What I don't like is to make v4.8 the new 6.0 just because it's the next one coming. If you want a new major version for breaking changes then put more effort into it. Releasing v5.0 or 6.0 makes only sense if there is more new to it then just FAL. I would expect some breaking changes to be introduced in 6.0 otherwise it makes NO SENSE to call it 6.0. Just my humble opinion
March 4, 2012
10:41
My suggestion was to split the announcement up into two pieces:
* "Phoenix" will not be the direct successor of TYPO3 v4
* The next version of TYPO3(v4) will be 6.0
The Phoenix team's part is the first statement, the v4 Core Team's part is the second one. Both together lead to this announcement.
v6 will include breaking changes, trust me. As said multiple times: It's not just an increase of the version number "because we can".
@Benny
I don't know you, but this might be caused by the fact that I wasn't a member of the TYPO3 community back in 2004 (started in 2008). You might have a different impression (everything is bad now), but the community I learned to know in the past years still rocks and I like it. I can especially say this after last week in Laax, which was one of the greatest events I attended in the past years.
* "Phoenix" will not be the direct successor of TYPO3 v4
* The next version of TYPO3(v4) will be 6.0
The Phoenix team's part is the first statement, the v4 Core Team's part is the second one. Both together lead to this announcement.
v6 will include breaking changes, trust me. As said multiple times: It's not just an increase of the version number "because we can".
@Benny
I don't know you, but this might be caused by the fact that I wasn't a member of the TYPO3 community back in 2004 (started in 2008). You might have a different impression (everything is bad now), but the community I learned to know in the past years still rocks and I like it. I can especially say this after last week in Laax, which was one of the greatest events I attended in the past years.
March 4, 2012
10:49
To andreas: we try to do as much as possible with the next version, take that as granted!
Fal is already a big change
Fal is already a big change
March 4, 2012
12:04
Sorry @Benny - it is not fair to write such accusations but not give your full name. It's kind of netiquette.
And the content of your posts seem to be wrong too in many places as the "big companies" have just one vote when it comes to a voting decision - just like any other assoc member have.
But:
1.) Community != CoreDev + SC + MarketingTeam
As it seems every Core Dev, the Steering Committee and the marketing team were aware of these changes for over a year - and this makes me sad. Why it was not possible to bring it to a discussion in the "community"? Why this inner circle?
2.) As it seems it was discussed in the CoreDev-Meeting (not in the Board and not in the Boards list as Gina stated) - so please publish the corresponding protocols from the meeting(s) to the association members.
3.) Why telling that for example Extbase is one of the most important bridging technologies between v4 and v5 and not informing one of the team members that you have other plans? I just can speak for the certification team and the extbase team - so my question:
Does anybody of the Extbase team has had knowledge about this?
- Sebastian Kurfürst (?)
- Bastian Waidelich (?)
- Claus Due (not)
- Felix Oertel (not)
- Patrick Lobacher (not)
- Christian Müller (?)
- Stefan Neufeind (?)
- Xavier Perseguers (uups - the guy who wrote this buzz article - at least he knew it)
- Jochen Rau (?)
I think no decision inside the coredevteam was made without Sebastian and Bastian (correct me if I'm wrong) - so at least 3 team members have known this for a long time and were not in need to inform their team colleagues and/or the team lead in time and discuss it with them? Wow. Not even at the T3BOARD which I have visited for 6 days (and I as not even boarding but the whole day in the overflow and later on at the bar)? Huuuu - I really have to think which consequences this has for my future work…
4.) I have asked the team leaders of v4 and v5 to officially take a stand at the T3DD12 in a separate Q&A session - hope they take their chance - but I encourage you (who have decided this) to find the dialogue with the community much earlier.
5.) Please explain officially (@v4 / @v5 ??) what you plan with the "ProductBoard" which seems to be installed very soon. Just inform us what the role is, which persons are member of, how the voting inside will work, why it is no official body of the assoc, if you plan to publish the protocols somewhere, if you plan a public poll for features, ...
6.) If FLOW3 will not be the basis of the successor of v4 and Phoenix (v5) is not the successor of v4 I think it would be fair to have an extraordinary GA to authorize the this years budget for these areas again. As we have the new structure this budget have to be voted by the whole community which are members of the association.
7.) By not informing the certification team in time we have now much bigger expenses to solve this problem (extraordinary meetings, perhaps technical changes to the process, and so on) -
from which existing budget we get the additional costs we need here potentially?
8.) Version numbers are not for us but for our customer. So a TYPO3 6.0 makes no sense with just FAL (as biggest change) - no customer will recognize it - so we have to include some "marketing features" their => therefore please install a product manager (CTO, whatever) who is NO developer!
9.) Finally I would like to say, that after one day of thinking about, I think that we now have the chance to solve the dilemma (in which we lived for a long time) and the project is in transition to a better one and I'm really looking forward what the result will be - but - the way it was done was the wrong one (in all directions - to the community, to the public and to the assoc). Just a small warning to everyone: We wanted democracy and now we HAVE TO live democracy. And this begins with transparency and a well working information politic. And with the voice of the community! And even if the tone of some comments are very rude - please hear to them - these are the community members which have a voice because they are angry - the others just leave the community without any warning if this continues.
10.) Let's first solve our communication problems - and right after this - join forces for the next and best TYPO3 release ever - even with a version number like 5.0, 6.0 or what else.
Regards,
Patrick
And the content of your posts seem to be wrong too in many places as the "big companies" have just one vote when it comes to a voting decision - just like any other assoc member have.
But:
1.) Community != CoreDev + SC + MarketingTeam
As it seems every Core Dev, the Steering Committee and the marketing team were aware of these changes for over a year - and this makes me sad. Why it was not possible to bring it to a discussion in the "community"? Why this inner circle?
2.) As it seems it was discussed in the CoreDev-Meeting (not in the Board and not in the Boards list as Gina stated) - so please publish the corresponding protocols from the meeting(s) to the association members.
3.) Why telling that for example Extbase is one of the most important bridging technologies between v4 and v5 and not informing one of the team members that you have other plans? I just can speak for the certification team and the extbase team - so my question:
Does anybody of the Extbase team has had knowledge about this?
- Sebastian Kurfürst (?)
- Bastian Waidelich (?)
- Claus Due (not)
- Felix Oertel (not)
- Patrick Lobacher (not)
- Christian Müller (?)
- Stefan Neufeind (?)
- Xavier Perseguers (uups - the guy who wrote this buzz article - at least he knew it)
- Jochen Rau (?)
I think no decision inside the coredevteam was made without Sebastian and Bastian (correct me if I'm wrong) - so at least 3 team members have known this for a long time and were not in need to inform their team colleagues and/or the team lead in time and discuss it with them? Wow. Not even at the T3BOARD which I have visited for 6 days (and I as not even boarding but the whole day in the overflow and later on at the bar)? Huuuu - I really have to think which consequences this has for my future work…
4.) I have asked the team leaders of v4 and v5 to officially take a stand at the T3DD12 in a separate Q&A session - hope they take their chance - but I encourage you (who have decided this) to find the dialogue with the community much earlier.
5.) Please explain officially (@v4 / @v5 ??) what you plan with the "ProductBoard" which seems to be installed very soon. Just inform us what the role is, which persons are member of, how the voting inside will work, why it is no official body of the assoc, if you plan to publish the protocols somewhere, if you plan a public poll for features, ...
6.) If FLOW3 will not be the basis of the successor of v4 and Phoenix (v5) is not the successor of v4 I think it would be fair to have an extraordinary GA to authorize the this years budget for these areas again. As we have the new structure this budget have to be voted by the whole community which are members of the association.
7.) By not informing the certification team in time we have now much bigger expenses to solve this problem (extraordinary meetings, perhaps technical changes to the process, and so on) -
from which existing budget we get the additional costs we need here potentially?
8.) Version numbers are not for us but for our customer. So a TYPO3 6.0 makes no sense with just FAL (as biggest change) - no customer will recognize it - so we have to include some "marketing features" their => therefore please install a product manager (CTO, whatever) who is NO developer!
9.) Finally I would like to say, that after one day of thinking about, I think that we now have the chance to solve the dilemma (in which we lived for a long time) and the project is in transition to a better one and I'm really looking forward what the result will be - but - the way it was done was the wrong one (in all directions - to the community, to the public and to the assoc). Just a small warning to everyone: We wanted democracy and now we HAVE TO live democracy. And this begins with transparency and a well working information politic. And with the voice of the community! And even if the tone of some comments are very rude - please hear to them - these are the community members which have a voice because they are angry - the others just leave the community without any warning if this continues.
10.) Let's first solve our communication problems - and right after this - join forces for the next and best TYPO3 release ever - even with a version number like 5.0, 6.0 or what else.
Regards,
Patrick
March 4, 2012
12:12
@Claus: No it is not that easy. There are a lot of publications from the past where the magic number "5.0" was used. If there is release with that version around there will be more people confused than you might think.
[some new name] and TYPO3 will get more and more in common in the future. There are already common parts; think Fluid, Extbase as backport of FLOW3, SwiftMailer as mail library, etc. Both core teams intend to develop new features/libraries for both products.
There will be loads of differences too, but that is only logical.
@Andreas: [some new name] will be a new product of the TYPO3 community. It is a web based content management system and as such can be seen as the successor of TYPO3. It will not be a matter of running an upgrade wizard and all your content and extensions are up and running. The differences are too big for that.
My digital harddisk recorder is the successor of my old analogue harddisk recorder. But it was by far not 100% compatible. It doesn't record/play DVDs, I couldn't transfer recordings from the old to the new, it uses other cables, etc.
@Peter Proell: you use a different definition of the "TYPO3 community" than many other people. This article is not the right place to discuss this, but it might be good idea to start discussions in public lists, etc. The "community" might be bigger than the T3A and the various teams... This would also shed a different light on the desire to be democratic.
For people talking about democracy and TYPO3: think if this is the best construction... I don't know of any company that is truly democratic (any CEO which was elected by all employees?), the Apache Software Foundation is a meritocracy, ...
For me personally the decision if a release is a major or minor release is more about breaking changes and backward compatibility than features. I think it's too early to say that 6.0 will be the next version after 4.7. It is very likely that FAL causes many changes in various parts of the core and if we decide that this is a good opportunity to implement more big changes to the API and structures then this might be a good moment to have a new major version number.
[some new name] and TYPO3 will get more and more in common in the future. There are already common parts; think Fluid, Extbase as backport of FLOW3, SwiftMailer as mail library, etc. Both core teams intend to develop new features/libraries for both products.
There will be loads of differences too, but that is only logical.
@Andreas: [some new name] will be a new product of the TYPO3 community. It is a web based content management system and as such can be seen as the successor of TYPO3. It will not be a matter of running an upgrade wizard and all your content and extensions are up and running. The differences are too big for that.
My digital harddisk recorder is the successor of my old analogue harddisk recorder. But it was by far not 100% compatible. It doesn't record/play DVDs, I couldn't transfer recordings from the old to the new, it uses other cables, etc.
@Peter Proell: you use a different definition of the "TYPO3 community" than many other people. This article is not the right place to discuss this, but it might be good idea to start discussions in public lists, etc. The "community" might be bigger than the T3A and the various teams... This would also shed a different light on the desire to be democratic.
For people talking about democracy and TYPO3: think if this is the best construction... I don't know of any company that is truly democratic (any CEO which was elected by all employees?), the Apache Software Foundation is a meritocracy, ...
For me personally the decision if a release is a major or minor release is more about breaking changes and backward compatibility than features. I think it's too early to say that 6.0 will be the next version after 4.7. It is very likely that FAL causes many changes in various parts of the core and if we decide that this is a good opportunity to implement more big changes to the API and structures then this might be a good moment to have a new major version number.
March 4, 2012
12:48
Patrick,
the Core teams know about this since November last year (the date, when a lot of people suddenly became demotivated - you might see this in the commit counters).
So it really took some time to discuss the initially suggested changes.
Regarding the Product Board, see this post http://robertlemke.de/blog/posts/2012/02/21/results-of-the-research-and-development-meeting (although it's IMHO very wrong that Robert publishes this in his private blog)!
The Product Board is no instance of the T3A, but one of the community. Official teams send their delegate to its meetings.
Once this board is implemented, it is the instance, which has to make such decisions. And I think that it would have help a lot in the current decision.
Extbase is not only a bridge technology. I would say that it's too successful to be such one. It brings new knowledge and expertise to its users. This helps the new product [some new name] a lot, as it starts with a broad user base. On the other hand, it *has* to compete with TYPO3 and also other OpenSource CMS and must not be praised prematurely, just because it's a TYPO3 product. So I really don't see a point, where this harms Extbase.
I agree that some quick decisions have to be made for the Certification. I see (at least) two options:
* Send everybody a new certificate stating that he/she is TYPO3 certified integrator forever
* Say "yes, it's only valid for the 4.x" branch". People have to re-certify for every new major version (which will not spring up like mushrooms).
* Say the same as before, but take this as opportunity to give it a time limit "your TYPO3 integrator certification is valid for X years" for future certifications.
Yours
Steffen
the Core teams know about this since November last year (the date, when a lot of people suddenly became demotivated - you might see this in the commit counters).
So it really took some time to discuss the initially suggested changes.
Regarding the Product Board, see this post http://robertlemke.de/blog/posts/2012/02/21/results-of-the-research-and-development-meeting (although it's IMHO very wrong that Robert publishes this in his private blog)!
The Product Board is no instance of the T3A, but one of the community. Official teams send their delegate to its meetings.
Once this board is implemented, it is the instance, which has to make such decisions. And I think that it would have help a lot in the current decision.
Extbase is not only a bridge technology. I would say that it's too successful to be such one. It brings new knowledge and expertise to its users. This helps the new product [some new name] a lot, as it starts with a broad user base. On the other hand, it *has* to compete with TYPO3 and also other OpenSource CMS and must not be praised prematurely, just because it's a TYPO3 product. So I really don't see a point, where this harms Extbase.
I agree that some quick decisions have to be made for the Certification. I see (at least) two options:
* Send everybody a new certificate stating that he/she is TYPO3 certified integrator forever
* Say "yes, it's only valid for the 4.x" branch". People have to re-certify for every new major version (which will not spring up like mushrooms).
* Say the same as before, but take this as opportunity to give it a time limit "your TYPO3 integrator certification is valid for X years" for future certifications.
Yours
Steffen
March 4, 2012
13:37
now that was a nice time reading the post and going frenzy on all that version number ideas, then reading all the comments that cover almost all concerns im having. im not as deep in business as i think most of the authors here propably are, but i really like TYPO3 as a flexible system one can count on.
to me it`s TYPO
to me it`s TYPO
March 4, 2012
13:41
I think the main points of Sander and me are being ignored.
The real problem isn't about naming TYPO3 v6 or something.
It unpleasant, WILL cause confusion and (even more dangerous) insecurity when trying to find the right product.
Google for "next generation TYPO3" and you will find TONS of stuff you cannot simply remove from the web.
So much for that.
The REAL issue is that obviously the Phoenix project continues to be a time- and budget-sink.
There are still no deadlines, not commitments, nothing "solid".
Just a rough idea like (overstated): "Yeah, we might come up with something, maybe not - but hey, keep the funds rolling".
The cries for a CTO are becoming louder and louder yet the T3A still ignores them - leading to a rather pathetic outside picture of the product management.
After 800k the whole "it's open source and voluntary work" story doesn't pull the bill anymore - since it's NOT voluntary work - it's PAID work.
So let's take a look at the other points Sander rose:
TYPO3 is loosing market share.
Why is that?
The product did not become worse, that's for sure.
So those in charge have the OBLIGATION to take a look around.
What are our competitors, what do they do we don't do?
Why does it work etc.?
The last point is that if the T3A budgets are not being spent on TYPO3 development ONLY (which they are not if Phoenix is a different product like you suggest) the T3A could be faced with serious legal consequences - which again, are being ignored.
Peculation of about 800k starts pointing towards getting into jail - I am surprised people think of this as peanuts.
The real problem isn't about naming TYPO3 v6 or something.
It unpleasant, WILL cause confusion and (even more dangerous) insecurity when trying to find the right product.
Google for "next generation TYPO3" and you will find TONS of stuff you cannot simply remove from the web.
So much for that.
The REAL issue is that obviously the Phoenix project continues to be a time- and budget-sink.
There are still no deadlines, not commitments, nothing "solid".
Just a rough idea like (overstated): "Yeah, we might come up with something, maybe not - but hey, keep the funds rolling".
The cries for a CTO are becoming louder and louder yet the T3A still ignores them - leading to a rather pathetic outside picture of the product management.
After 800k the whole "it's open source and voluntary work" story doesn't pull the bill anymore - since it's NOT voluntary work - it's PAID work.
So let's take a look at the other points Sander rose:
TYPO3 is loosing market share.
Why is that?
The product did not become worse, that's for sure.
So those in charge have the OBLIGATION to take a look around.
What are our competitors, what do they do we don't do?
Why does it work etc.?
The last point is that if the T3A budgets are not being spent on TYPO3 development ONLY (which they are not if Phoenix is a different product like you suggest) the T3A could be faced with serious legal consequences - which again, are being ignored.
Peculation of about 800k starts pointing towards getting into jail - I am surprised people think of this as peanuts.
March 4, 2012
14:48
@Jigal: If people are expecting version 5.0 to be the next, big thing - then I would expect extreme confusion when version 6.0 does not turn out to be the next, even bigger thing. How should we explain this change to our customers without making them laugh?
March 4, 2012
15:01
Sorry for not stating my full name in my post above. My name should be clear now, as one of the most active non-Core Devs.
Basically said, I don't care much about version numbers, but I'm not working with customers directly and I'm with TYPO3 since 3.5.
But what I can only repeat again and again: Establish a ground solid transparency in all terms and topics you may think of.
We know lots of OS projects which experienced what we all want to avoid: a fork!
*And one final point for all of you*
Please learn Point 9 of Patrick (#42) by heart:
Never blame the 10% of people which shout out loud what's going wrong, blame those 90% who are leaving not telling you their objections.
Regards
Markus
Basically said, I don't care much about version numbers, but I'm not working with customers directly and I'm with TYPO3 since 3.5.
But what I can only repeat again and again: Establish a ground solid transparency in all terms and topics you may think of.
We know lots of OS projects which experienced what we all want to avoid: a fork!
*And one final point for all of you*
Please learn Point 9 of Patrick (#42) by heart:
Never blame the 10% of people which shout out loud what's going wrong, blame those 90% who are leaving not telling you their objections.
Regards
Markus
March 4, 2012
15:03
Allow me to elaborate my last comment. Basically we have two possible explanation scenarios:
The first one involves explaining the version jump by first explaining the history of the whole "v5" thing. And I have to ask myself - is this relevant information for our customers? And if we don't explain this fully although it is complicated and seems irrelevant to them - how will they react to the version jump?
The second one involves explaining that Phonenix - which they may or may not have heard of - will not be the successor to TYPO3 and thus naturally will not be called TYPO3 version 5.0.
I feel so stupid saying "sorry, there will be no version 5.0 - but here is a version 6.0 instead" that I would have to begin explaining the historic reason for the change and if I was a customer, I wouldn't be the interested in hearing that speech.
In other words: Because Phoenix is no longer the TYPO3 successor we no longer need to respect Phoenix in the TYPO3 release scheme, we don't need to do a version jump, and because of this we will have a much easier time explaining this to our customers in a way that is sensible and quickly understood. And causes no embarrassment.
Is this not a valid and heavy concern? We each have hundreds of customers and they will all ask the same question. If we need this long article to explain this to the TYPO3 community, imagine how much it will take to explain it to someone without the historical insight...
The first one involves explaining the version jump by first explaining the history of the whole "v5" thing. And I have to ask myself - is this relevant information for our customers? And if we don't explain this fully although it is complicated and seems irrelevant to them - how will they react to the version jump?
The second one involves explaining that Phonenix - which they may or may not have heard of - will not be the successor to TYPO3 and thus naturally will not be called TYPO3 version 5.0.
I feel so stupid saying "sorry, there will be no version 5.0 - but here is a version 6.0 instead" that I would have to begin explaining the historic reason for the change and if I was a customer, I wouldn't be the interested in hearing that speech.
In other words: Because Phoenix is no longer the TYPO3 successor we no longer need to respect Phoenix in the TYPO3 release scheme, we don't need to do a version jump, and because of this we will have a much easier time explaining this to our customers in a way that is sensible and quickly understood. And causes no embarrassment.
Is this not a valid and heavy concern? We each have hundreds of customers and they will all ask the same question. If we need this long article to explain this to the TYPO3 community, imagine how much it will take to explain it to someone without the historical insight...
March 4, 2012
15:16
@Steffen: Thank you very much for this very illuminating blog article link which - I agree - should have been published in the public and not in a private blog.
March 4, 2012
15:25
Hello again,
I've read all your comments over the last few days and I see that there is discussion needed and also I've showed my concerns. But IMHO the discussion is now taking a direction where it could harm TYPO3.
IMHO it should be moved somewhere, where it doesn't appear in direct context to the information and is not that visible to a broad audience.
I would like to propose to move this discussion to the mailinglists now.
Regards,
Boris
I've read all your comments over the last few days and I see that there is discussion needed and also I've showed my concerns. But IMHO the discussion is now taking a direction where it could harm TYPO3.
IMHO it should be moved somewhere, where it doesn't appear in direct context to the information and is not that visible to a broad audience.
I would like to propose to move this discussion to the mailinglists now.
Regards,
Boris
March 4, 2012
15:47
fyi. I've just created a thread at typo3.english maillinglist.
I don't know if it's the right group for the comments, but feel free to add yours.
Regards,
Boris
I don't know if it's the right group for the comments, but feel free to add yours.
Regards,
Boris
March 4, 2012
17:43
@Matthias X. : your (and Sanders) comments were not about version numbers and product names; they were about budgets and other subjects which are not the topic of this article. Theses issues are IMO a matter for the TYPO3 Association and its members (FYI I'm not a member).
Regarding the products and naming, take a look at Apache. This is the name of a web server product and there is a foundation with the same name (Apache Software Foundation - ASF). Over the years other products were added to the 'umbrella' of the ASF.
There is a similar situation with the TYPO3 Association. It started with funding the development of TYPO3 (the CMS) and added over time other products like Fluid, FLOW3. Soon [some new name] will be added to that portfolio. The only difference with [some new name] is that [some new name] is built on the framework FLOW3, uses Fluid and will over time replace TYPO3 (the CMS).
Maybe the marketing people will come up with the naming scheme that "TYPO3" will always be added in front of the product name. Just like there is "Apache Solr", "Apache Nutch", etc. we might have "TYPO3 FLOW3", "TYPO3 Fluid" and "TYPO3 [some new name]".
Changing a numbering scheme has resulted in a lot of energy for discussing this, maybe the same energy can be used to come up with an absolutely great name for [some new name]?
Regarding the products and naming, take a look at Apache. This is the name of a web server product and there is a foundation with the same name (Apache Software Foundation - ASF). Over the years other products were added to the 'umbrella' of the ASF.
There is a similar situation with the TYPO3 Association. It started with funding the development of TYPO3 (the CMS) and added over time other products like Fluid, FLOW3. Soon [some new name] will be added to that portfolio. The only difference with [some new name] is that [some new name] is built on the framework FLOW3, uses Fluid and will over time replace TYPO3 (the CMS).
Maybe the marketing people will come up with the naming scheme that "TYPO3" will always be added in front of the product name. Just like there is "Apache Solr", "Apache Nutch", etc. we might have "TYPO3 FLOW3", "TYPO3 Fluid" and "TYPO3 [some new name]".
Changing a numbering scheme has resulted in a lot of energy for discussing this, maybe the same energy can be used to come up with an absolutely great name for [some new name]?
March 4, 2012
20:11
It was about time to address this topic in public. Thanks for sharing your opinion. TYPO3 community proves that it's active and alive and I appreciate this inspiring discussion.
Let me share my opinion:
1) We finally named it.
That step was hard, but neccessary. I feel somehow relieved. And I believe there's a lot of potential to be freed now. Let's take that chance.
2) Evolution in community projects can appear weird, lousy and even irrational from a historical perspective. But chances are that the opposite was perceived when decisions were made. That even happens in experienced and well streuctured organisations.
I don't believe our very issue is a result of some secret-inner-circle-conspiracy, but of a complex progress of community driven open source project. The process took many years and implied the chance to name ideas, wishes and goals, the chance to discard them if unsuitable and the chance to contribute. The path was full of insecurity, doubt and failures. So what did you expect?
2) Let's get rid of "for lifetime" certification.
I'd really appreciate a renewal of all given certifications and giving up "for lifetime" certification. Forcing renewal of the cert after $n years or $n releases makes totally sense to me. Knowledge is volatile and it needs to be acquired on a regular basis. So it consequently needs to be proven in regular exams. Certification renewal is win-win-win, because (1) customers can rely on (2) up-to-date certified developers which (3) support the TYPO3 association by paying exam fee.
The only problem here is a transition between old and new certification, especially for those who take their exam these days or not long ago. But I am sure we will find a solution for that.
3) Breaking software changes are much easier to be shipped. Some of you might remember the decision some weeks ago, to rollback ExtJS4 because of breaking changes with ExtJS3 and BE modules. A tremendous amount of time was invested. Frustrating. We probably will face these situations again and again.
4) Before you complain about there's not enough features to justify version 6, please first take a look at Incubator. It contains some more projects than only FAL.
5) The move to version 6 can lead TYPO3 to a more reliable roadmap. New major versions ship breaking changes, leading to a final minor version which is LTS focussing on stability, e.g. 6.0 -> 6.1 -> 6.2 -> 6 LTS, 7.0 -> 7.1 -> 7.LTS
6) I don't mind having two "products" Phoenix and TYPO3v4. It does not imply that both developers and the code need to diverge into two separate domains.
FLOW3 brought a lot of innovation to TYPO3v4. A lot of architecture and code was adopted, like caching framework, extbase, fluid, ... As a developer I could not imagine working with TYPO3 without that. I would have already left the project if I'd still have to rely on piBase. On the other hands, Extbase in-the-wild experience will influence usage of FLOW3. The same goes for infrastructure (git, gerrit, forge, lists, ...) and project management. Competition is good for business. This has already been proven.
So far, thanks for comments.
Let me share my opinion:
1) We finally named it.
That step was hard, but neccessary. I feel somehow relieved. And I believe there's a lot of potential to be freed now. Let's take that chance.
2) Evolution in community projects can appear weird, lousy and even irrational from a historical perspective. But chances are that the opposite was perceived when decisions were made. That even happens in experienced and well streuctured organisations.
I don't believe our very issue is a result of some secret-inner-circle-conspiracy, but of a complex progress of community driven open source project. The process took many years and implied the chance to name ideas, wishes and goals, the chance to discard them if unsuitable and the chance to contribute. The path was full of insecurity, doubt and failures. So what did you expect?
2) Let's get rid of "for lifetime" certification.
I'd really appreciate a renewal of all given certifications and giving up "for lifetime" certification. Forcing renewal of the cert after $n years or $n releases makes totally sense to me. Knowledge is volatile and it needs to be acquired on a regular basis. So it consequently needs to be proven in regular exams. Certification renewal is win-win-win, because (1) customers can rely on (2) up-to-date certified developers which (3) support the TYPO3 association by paying exam fee.
The only problem here is a transition between old and new certification, especially for those who take their exam these days or not long ago. But I am sure we will find a solution for that.
3) Breaking software changes are much easier to be shipped. Some of you might remember the decision some weeks ago, to rollback ExtJS4 because of breaking changes with ExtJS3 and BE modules. A tremendous amount of time was invested. Frustrating. We probably will face these situations again and again.
4) Before you complain about there's not enough features to justify version 6, please first take a look at Incubator. It contains some more projects than only FAL.
5) The move to version 6 can lead TYPO3 to a more reliable roadmap. New major versions ship breaking changes, leading to a final minor version which is LTS focussing on stability, e.g. 6.0 -> 6.1 -> 6.2 -> 6 LTS, 7.0 -> 7.1 -> 7.LTS
6) I don't mind having two "products" Phoenix and TYPO3v4. It does not imply that both developers and the code need to diverge into two separate domains.
FLOW3 brought a lot of innovation to TYPO3v4. A lot of architecture and code was adopted, like caching framework, extbase, fluid, ... As a developer I could not imagine working with TYPO3 without that. I would have already left the project if I'd still have to rely on piBase. On the other hands, Extbase in-the-wild experience will influence usage of FLOW3. The same goes for infrastructure (git, gerrit, forge, lists, ...) and project management. Competition is good for business. This has already been proven.
So far, thanks for comments.
March 4, 2012
20:53
After reading this post and all the comments one thing is clear IMHO. There's a huge problem within communication and the whole approach of it in general. This has been said more than enough in the comments but also some of the comments really make an association member - like me - think.
Being someone that has tried to get involved here and there over the past years but still the doors weren't opened brought my ambitions to contribute to almost zero. So I was not really surprised about Sander's post.
After the new budgets have been published a few people asked detailed questions via twitter. So did I. Interestingly enough my moreless critical question regarding the budget was pretty much the only one that has not been answered.
Same experience as I had this before.
Try to get involved but be ignored once you get too critical over decisions some key people have taken. Well sorry for being a paying member of the association.
Oh wait. I'm a paying member but still I had no upfront information about the ongoing idea of the naming change. There we have it again. Miscommunication.
And yes, being a paying member I feel being part of the community behind TYPO3. Am I wrong? Should I re-think about staying a paying member?
One more thing about Steffen's post and the certification:
> (1) customers can rely on (2) up-to-date certified developers which (3) support the
> TYPO3 association by paying exam fee.
Well you see, there's the thing. The customer can NOT rely on a certified "developer" being a good "developer" when it comes to extension development. As until now there is no extension development certification.
So what should an enterprise customer decide being in the need of heavy extension development for his new project?
Yes this is a bit out of the loop of the ongoing discussion here, but it also shows one thing: The way things are being communicated. IMHO this includes the way the certification has been - and still is - presented.
Developers trying to take a marketing approach in a wrong way, at least that's the way it looks to me. Maybe I'm wrong, obviously although I am a paying member I don't have a lot of informations...
Just my 2 cents...
Oliver
Being someone that has tried to get involved here and there over the past years but still the doors weren't opened brought my ambitions to contribute to almost zero. So I was not really surprised about Sander's post.
After the new budgets have been published a few people asked detailed questions via twitter. So did I. Interestingly enough my moreless critical question regarding the budget was pretty much the only one that has not been answered.
Same experience as I had this before.
Try to get involved but be ignored once you get too critical over decisions some key people have taken. Well sorry for being a paying member of the association.
Oh wait. I'm a paying member but still I had no upfront information about the ongoing idea of the naming change. There we have it again. Miscommunication.
And yes, being a paying member I feel being part of the community behind TYPO3. Am I wrong? Should I re-think about staying a paying member?
One more thing about Steffen's post and the certification:
> (1) customers can rely on (2) up-to-date certified developers which (3) support the
> TYPO3 association by paying exam fee.
Well you see, there's the thing. The customer can NOT rely on a certified "developer" being a good "developer" when it comes to extension development. As until now there is no extension development certification.
So what should an enterprise customer decide being in the need of heavy extension development for his new project?
Yes this is a bit out of the loop of the ongoing discussion here, but it also shows one thing: The way things are being communicated. IMHO this includes the way the certification has been - and still is - presented.
Developers trying to take a marketing approach in a wrong way, at least that's the way it looks to me. Maybe I'm wrong, obviously although I am a paying member I don't have a lot of informations...
Just my 2 cents...
Oliver
March 4, 2012
21:03
@OliverWand
I should have used the term "integrator" instead of "developer". My fault.
I appreciate your suggestion for a certification for extension developers. That makes totally sense. I bet this has already been addressed to the certification team. If not, let's carry this idea out from this thread to the team and let's make it happen.
I should have used the term "integrator" instead of "developer". My fault.
I appreciate your suggestion for a certification for extension developers. That makes totally sense. I bet this has already been addressed to the certification team. If not, let's carry this idea out from this thread to the team and let's make it happen.
March 4, 2012
21:04
Well Well Well.
First I have to say, that I'm really unemotional about the whole version number discussion. Call it 5.0 or 6.0 or even twirteen if you like.
Wanna know why? Because most customers don't give a sh** about the version number their site is running on. Jeez, most of them don't even care if there are severe security issues around. You know why? Because they don't have to care. That's what they pay agencies for. You know, taking care of such things.
At the end of the day, they want to get their business done. If the tool enables them to do so, they will be fine. Damn, I saw people editing their content in Excel-Sheets and import that to their CMS via CSV every once in a while. Talking about convenience.
Sure as hell, there will be some bitching going on. But hey, it can't get much worse than this, can it?
I'm not even surprised about, how this all came around. I got used to it over the last 8 to 9 years. But I strongly recommend to step back from some fancy conspiracy theories. I have some sort of insight because I'm around for such a long time and I know a lot of people. From what I know, I can say that 95% of the people want to do make the right decision do the what's best for the project. Everybody hits a pothole now and than but you can't blame people for that. And the other 5%? What can I say, you have assholes everywhere. You just have to make sure that they don't become the majority.
What I'm really sad about is that I've foreseen this discussion (not the versioning thing) when Kasper stepped down as "King" of the project. That was a very sad day for me. Not only because I thought that Kasper was (and certainly is) a great "leader" but especially because I didn't see anyone who could fill that gap he left behind. And to be honest I still don't see such a person. He had a clear vision in mind. Not especially for the product but for the project and it's community. That's what is really missing since than. No route and not even a guide.
I talked to some people back than (well the ones that where willing to listen to me) and claimed that the community will go down the drain when there won't be a strong person at the top. Most people told me that I see to negative and everything's gonna be fine.
And now look where we are? Well, it's probably not that bad as it seems and I really like the perception from Steffen Müller. Let's take this as an opportunity!
I can't say that I'm more or less motivated right now. As I said above I can't care less about version numbers.
I have some pretty strong feelings about the ridiculous amounts of money that where spent on certain projects over the last years though. But that is a whole different story that shall not be discussed here. ;-)
I will watch all this with great interest and I wish that the community will rise on this matter. Let's hope that we will all go out stronger and wiser and come back like the Phoenix from the ashes (scnr).
Greets,
Thomas
March 4, 2012
22:26
@Thomas
I guess the "leader" thing is clearly the most important issue at hand.
I see it this way:
When Kasper left, noone really saw the demand for a leader (or what most people call for... a CTO).
V5hoenix was communicated as "on the horizon" so even I did not see the need for a CTO/leader.
But I guess we can say for sure that the whole rewrite project has failed in regards to deadlines.
I'd opt for giving just 1 year of budget to the "old code" stuff in order to have one, maybe two people in charge of an overall concept, a very rough roadmap with milestones (but no dates on these) so that we have a direction where we're heading.
You could even attach major versions to these milestones if you so desire.
I dig the work the RMs put into their babies, but the overall big picture is missing for a couple of years - hence the idea of having someone picking up all the demands for an up-to-date CMS (mostly workflow and publishing stuff x-server) plus guiding all the cool fancy input from the devs that they come up with.
Then fund the huge improvements and get things done.
If I overstate it a bit:
Phoenix had their shot, now give the working system a shot as well.
I guess the "leader" thing is clearly the most important issue at hand.
I see it this way:
When Kasper left, noone really saw the demand for a leader (or what most people call for... a CTO).
V5hoenix was communicated as "on the horizon" so even I did not see the need for a CTO/leader.
But I guess we can say for sure that the whole rewrite project has failed in regards to deadlines.
I'd opt for giving just 1 year of budget to the "old code" stuff in order to have one, maybe two people in charge of an overall concept, a very rough roadmap with milestones (but no dates on these) so that we have a direction where we're heading.
You could even attach major versions to these milestones if you so desire.
I dig the work the RMs put into their babies, but the overall big picture is missing for a couple of years - hence the idea of having someone picking up all the demands for an up-to-date CMS (mostly workflow and publishing stuff x-server) plus guiding all the cool fancy input from the devs that they come up with.
Then fund the huge improvements and get things done.
If I overstate it a bit:
Phoenix had their shot, now give the working system a shot as well.
March 4, 2012
22:35
Dear developers,
As all your reactions prove, you just don't see out of your own little hemisphere of technical development. That's not your fault, that's who you are and that's why you;re a developer. I know since I am a marketeer and a business owner directing over 20 developers for various projects at the moment.
One of the most famous communication professors go the last century, Marshal McLuhan, said it like this in a famous quote:
"“One thing about which fish know exactly nothing is water, since they have no anti-environment which would enable them to perceive the element they live in.”
And that is what going on in the T3A and with the development of TYPO3. Developers have got all freedom to do whatever they like since the whole T3A is populated with developers and other scholars which is not good. Then you get what is stated in another famous British saying:""The Lunatics Have Taken Over the Asylum"
This was stated originally by the most famous advertising consultant that ever lived, David Ogilvy. What he meant is that you can not let the creative geniuses lead the business since they will pursuit all there crazy ideas since they really think they are all fantastic.
And that is what happened over the years within the T3A and ask largely the community and everybody that tried to hinder this development has been pushed out. But still you developers keep lingering about specs, releases and so on and like Mattes above also remarks, you just ignore all valid arguments that are given and the fact keep what they are, whatever you say:
1. €800.000,- spend, no product in almost eight years
2. most of the money spend on a PHP framework instead of a CMS what is what we supporting members paid for.
3. market share dropped dramatic over the last five years
4. only five countries left in the world where Typo3 has a leading role as an open source CMS, that was almost 30. So all talk about leading open source etc. is bullshit.
And all this talk about 'it was a community decision'. Please Peter (Proell) can you give me your definition of the TYPO3 community? They did not ask me anything, nor did they ask anything to my t3 friends and developers in India, Rumania, Ecuador, the US or Russia. It was decided by a little group of people and as Peter tell us, the Steering Committee WHILE THEY DON'T EXIST ANYMORE!! How can this be?? IS that community?
Please take the following points into SERIOUS CONSIDERATION:
1. The original plan was to develop TYPO3 until version 4.9, then we would start with the new branch 5.0. When we bypass 5.0 and continue developing the old branch you clearly prove yourself that Robert Lemke and with him have failed in the one task they erected the T3A.
2. The fact that they did spend al this money on Flow3 is just plain illegal. I let my lawyer look into the Bylaws and he agrees with me fully. If a group of supporting members start a lawsuit over this agains the T3A, they'll have a BIG problem.
3. This is for me the biggest prove that the developer guys just don't see the bigger picture: the process like Xavier explains it and what Patrick comments on it can only be described like this: YOU ARE FORKING TYPO3 YOURSELF!
Within the -real- community this has been considered being the most dangerous thing that could happen to TYPO3 in the past. There were may reasons we could think of why that would lead to great misery for our beloved project. And now you nerds just argue why this is not bad.
Well I explain it to you:
1. this will be a big blow in client trust, it will not be understood since we just can not give a good explanation. (eh how old is the 4.x core?)
2. with a continuously shrinking developers community, we have to keep dividing the energy and development power (eh who gets the best developers?)
3. we have to divide the money spend on development or do we keep paying Robert and let the others work for honor and reputation?
4. the outer world in IT being the open source journals, the Gardners and IDG's, the other communities and so on will hammer our reputation even more.
Last but not least. If you guys 'within' again will push forward this decision against the will of a lot of business owners, there might be a big change that you force the big fuck-up that crushed Mambo (remember them?), osCOmmerce and the lot: Typo3 will be forked. You cannot just ignore year over year a large part of your community. Lots of people have just turned their back and left for Drupal and the like. But there's still enough people over here who are not willing to let you ruin TYPO3 what they also consider as their product also.
Just like Mattes I also belong to the group that was with TYPO3 when we were a community of about 25 young enthusiast guys. I was the first not technical member so I erected the marketing theme in 2001 and started global marketing. In my years the CMS grew each year with hundreds -or even thousands- of percentage. We went from 25 people on the mailing list to 70.000. We went from 50 websites online end of 2000 to 500.000 in 2006. We went from 6 companies offering TYPO3 to over 5000. From six countries to 94.
Since 2007 this has all been declining. And not one argument can change this. Only one valid conclusion: things go wrong and have to change. And yes, people are responsible for this. In politics, in business, in government, everywhere when thing go wrong, when targets are missed, when profit drops, when market share goes down, when the party loses votes in elections, people responsible draw their conclusions. Hey I'm responsible so I will resign. That's how it;s supposed to be. Well it goes really wrong with TYPO3 quit a long time no, why is this different in an open source community?
Please respond to these facts people, not just bullshitting over versions and numbers, or you should not talk like this bullshit. There's facts here, stick to them and give valid answers.
@ Jigal - The Apache foundation did exactly what the T3A should have done: first they developed a great platform which is the Apache web server. Then they funded, nurtured and managed a whole spread of great software products that run on their web server. The T3A should have been doing just that the last years: develop a new TYPO3 version (on a framework? fine use Symfony of Cake or the like), and then fund great Extension projects that are asked for in the market like a portal extension, document management, Search, community plugin, mobile plugin etc. What Robert did like if the Apache Foundation would have said 'well we are going to put all our money into a better web server and then start developing a new Operation System for the server on which they can base a new Web server in the future. No they just took Linux instead of saying 'well this Linux is not good enough for us, let's make something superior. But Robert did exactly that. which some would call a form of delusions of grandeur.
As all your reactions prove, you just don't see out of your own little hemisphere of technical development. That's not your fault, that's who you are and that's why you;re a developer. I know since I am a marketeer and a business owner directing over 20 developers for various projects at the moment.
One of the most famous communication professors go the last century, Marshal McLuhan, said it like this in a famous quote:
"“One thing about which fish know exactly nothing is water, since they have no anti-environment which would enable them to perceive the element they live in.”
And that is what going on in the T3A and with the development of TYPO3. Developers have got all freedom to do whatever they like since the whole T3A is populated with developers and other scholars which is not good. Then you get what is stated in another famous British saying:""The Lunatics Have Taken Over the Asylum"
This was stated originally by the most famous advertising consultant that ever lived, David Ogilvy. What he meant is that you can not let the creative geniuses lead the business since they will pursuit all there crazy ideas since they really think they are all fantastic.
And that is what happened over the years within the T3A and ask largely the community and everybody that tried to hinder this development has been pushed out. But still you developers keep lingering about specs, releases and so on and like Mattes above also remarks, you just ignore all valid arguments that are given and the fact keep what they are, whatever you say:
1. €800.000,- spend, no product in almost eight years
2. most of the money spend on a PHP framework instead of a CMS what is what we supporting members paid for.
3. market share dropped dramatic over the last five years
4. only five countries left in the world where Typo3 has a leading role as an open source CMS, that was almost 30. So all talk about leading open source etc. is bullshit.
And all this talk about 'it was a community decision'. Please Peter (Proell) can you give me your definition of the TYPO3 community? They did not ask me anything, nor did they ask anything to my t3 friends and developers in India, Rumania, Ecuador, the US or Russia. It was decided by a little group of people and as Peter tell us, the Steering Committee WHILE THEY DON'T EXIST ANYMORE!! How can this be?? IS that community?
Please take the following points into SERIOUS CONSIDERATION:
1. The original plan was to develop TYPO3 until version 4.9, then we would start with the new branch 5.0. When we bypass 5.0 and continue developing the old branch you clearly prove yourself that Robert Lemke and with him have failed in the one task they erected the T3A.
2. The fact that they did spend al this money on Flow3 is just plain illegal. I let my lawyer look into the Bylaws and he agrees with me fully. If a group of supporting members start a lawsuit over this agains the T3A, they'll have a BIG problem.
3. This is for me the biggest prove that the developer guys just don't see the bigger picture: the process like Xavier explains it and what Patrick comments on it can only be described like this: YOU ARE FORKING TYPO3 YOURSELF!
Within the -real- community this has been considered being the most dangerous thing that could happen to TYPO3 in the past. There were may reasons we could think of why that would lead to great misery for our beloved project. And now you nerds just argue why this is not bad.
Well I explain it to you:
1. this will be a big blow in client trust, it will not be understood since we just can not give a good explanation. (eh how old is the 4.x core?)
2. with a continuously shrinking developers community, we have to keep dividing the energy and development power (eh who gets the best developers?)
3. we have to divide the money spend on development or do we keep paying Robert and let the others work for honor and reputation?
4. the outer world in IT being the open source journals, the Gardners and IDG's, the other communities and so on will hammer our reputation even more.
Last but not least. If you guys 'within' again will push forward this decision against the will of a lot of business owners, there might be a big change that you force the big fuck-up that crushed Mambo (remember them?), osCOmmerce and the lot: Typo3 will be forked. You cannot just ignore year over year a large part of your community. Lots of people have just turned their back and left for Drupal and the like. But there's still enough people over here who are not willing to let you ruin TYPO3 what they also consider as their product also.
Just like Mattes I also belong to the group that was with TYPO3 when we were a community of about 25 young enthusiast guys. I was the first not technical member so I erected the marketing theme in 2001 and started global marketing. In my years the CMS grew each year with hundreds -or even thousands- of percentage. We went from 25 people on the mailing list to 70.000. We went from 50 websites online end of 2000 to 500.000 in 2006. We went from 6 companies offering TYPO3 to over 5000. From six countries to 94.
Since 2007 this has all been declining. And not one argument can change this. Only one valid conclusion: things go wrong and have to change. And yes, people are responsible for this. In politics, in business, in government, everywhere when thing go wrong, when targets are missed, when profit drops, when market share goes down, when the party loses votes in elections, people responsible draw their conclusions. Hey I'm responsible so I will resign. That's how it;s supposed to be. Well it goes really wrong with TYPO3 quit a long time no, why is this different in an open source community?
Please respond to these facts people, not just bullshitting over versions and numbers, or you should not talk like this bullshit. There's facts here, stick to them and give valid answers.
@ Jigal - The Apache foundation did exactly what the T3A should have done: first they developed a great platform which is the Apache web server. Then they funded, nurtured and managed a whole spread of great software products that run on their web server. The T3A should have been doing just that the last years: develop a new TYPO3 version (on a framework? fine use Symfony of Cake or the like), and then fund great Extension projects that are asked for in the market like a portal extension, document management, Search, community plugin, mobile plugin etc. What Robert did like if the Apache Foundation would have said 'well we are going to put all our money into a better web server and then start developing a new Operation System for the server on which they can base a new Web server in the future. No they just took Linux instead of saying 'well this Linux is not good enough for us, let's make something superior. But Robert did exactly that. which some would call a form of delusions of grandeur.
March 4, 2012
23:43
I'm really shocked about how much disrespect some of the comments reveal. It's a shame. Please calm down, stop offensive comments, get back to some more kindness. Thanks! And please don't feed the trolls.
March 5, 2012
01:06
@Patrick: I wasn't aware of this, as well as a lot of people in various other official TYPO3 teams mentioned here. And yes, I am still a bit "shocked".
I've followed this thread as well and now finally read up on it again. It seems to have been a huge communication-problem, and I'm still not 100% sure the decision is "great". But it was decided and announced now (okay, through a "buzz-article").
So let's move to the mailinglist now and discuss how to deal with it. We'll find a way, I'm sure.
I've followed this thread as well and now finally read up on it again. It seems to have been a huge communication-problem, and I'm still not 100% sure the decision is "great". But it was decided and announced now (okay, through a "buzz-article").
So let's move to the mailinglist now and discuss how to deal with it. We'll find a way, I'm sure.
March 5, 2012
06:20
I can understand the reasoning, that Phoenix will not be the direct successor of v4 and it should take its time to mature and evolve in the wild instead of behind closed doors.
However the whole "call the v4 branch 6.0" idea is major bullshit and only leads to confusion. Make it clear that 5.0 is not Phoenix and use it to make breaking changes, which is what major versions are for, after all.
I disagree on moving the discussion on the mailing list, because it's just another way of excluding the public (or less technical people) from it.
As to why market share is declining, for me as a dev the decision is simple: TYPO3 in its current form is awkward to develop for and really needs a reboot to become as fun to work with as eg. Rails. Also TYPO3v4 heavily depends on TypoScript which provides no syntax validation or debugging, which makes it IMHO the biggest pain in developing.
However the whole "call the v4 branch 6.0" idea is major bullshit and only leads to confusion. Make it clear that 5.0 is not Phoenix and use it to make breaking changes, which is what major versions are for, after all.
I disagree on moving the discussion on the mailing list, because it's just another way of excluding the public (or less technical people) from it.
As to why market share is declining, for me as a dev the decision is simple: TYPO3 in its current form is awkward to develop for and really needs a reboot to become as fun to work with as eg. Rails. Also TYPO3v4 heavily depends on TypoScript which provides no syntax validation or debugging, which makes it IMHO the biggest pain in developing.
March 5, 2012
07:41
Thank you xavier for your great work and article! I personaly like this strategy, cause it realy fits our concept of using Phoenix parallel to TYPO3 4.x...
March 5, 2012
08:43
i write from the view of an interessted user.
a user could think:
"2 different branches will show the user: 2 branches? is there a good and a bad one or why there are typo3 v6 and phoenix? what are the differences? what if the one version is is the bad version? can i migrate to the other version?
this is to complicated. i use another system, which has not different versions."
i my opinion make only one team for dev is the best decision for the project, for example the knowledge exchange between the team members can be better, specially in intergrating "old" things from v4 (e.g. fal, when it is ready, the accessibility in 4.7 or other, very usefull developments from version 4.)
the accessibility of the website is important to get more users, like federal institutions in germany or europe. in germany some federal institutions want (maybe the ble?) or have typo3 for their websites (http://bmg.bund.de/). typo3 is one of the best alternatives against the gouvernment site builder (gsb).
i hope, that typo3 will have a good future and get more popular in the web.
a user could think:
"2 different branches will show the user: 2 branches? is there a good and a bad one or why there are typo3 v6 and phoenix? what are the differences? what if the one version is is the bad version? can i migrate to the other version?
this is to complicated. i use another system, which has not different versions."
i my opinion make only one team for dev is the best decision for the project, for example the knowledge exchange between the team members can be better, specially in intergrating "old" things from v4 (e.g. fal, when it is ready, the accessibility in 4.7 or other, very usefull developments from version 4.)
the accessibility of the website is important to get more users, like federal institutions in germany or europe. in germany some federal institutions want (maybe the ble?) or have typo3 for their websites (http://bmg.bund.de/). typo3 is one of the best alternatives against the gouvernment site builder (gsb).
i hope, that typo3 will have a good future and get more popular in the web.
March 5, 2012
08:51
Really good blogpost about the future of TYPO3. I personally think that it´s a good thing to change the version number when maayor changes are made to the Core. And in the end it´s still the same two products (Phoenix, TYPO3 4.x) that would live next to eachother. So it´s just a number :)
Keep up the good work everybody!
Keep up the good work everybody!
March 5, 2012
10:15
Hello
Going from 4.7 to 6.0 in my opinion is a very bad move. It's a bad move for the already shattered image of TYPO3. Of course we all love TYPO3 and can't see behind the curtain but some of us keep contact to people with interests in other PHP software products.
People outside (and the customers) will see TYPO3 6.0 as a rushed out product which comes with nothing new (FAL isn't that great feature especially for customers who don't care about technical aspects). It will also suggest that the guys working on TYPO3 5.0 Phoenix were not able to finish that product and instead they took the old one, changed version numbers and offer it as 6.0.
Basically i agree with the comments above that this means the forking of TYPO3 and as there is already very limited developer manpower this will only hurt both the products.
If you insist on forking TYPO3 then please consider keeping at least version 4.8 and think of something big when you release 6.0 not just some dust in the eyes of customers.
Going from 4.7 to 6.0 in my opinion is a very bad move. It's a bad move for the already shattered image of TYPO3. Of course we all love TYPO3 and can't see behind the curtain but some of us keep contact to people with interests in other PHP software products.
People outside (and the customers) will see TYPO3 6.0 as a rushed out product which comes with nothing new (FAL isn't that great feature especially for customers who don't care about technical aspects). It will also suggest that the guys working on TYPO3 5.0 Phoenix were not able to finish that product and instead they took the old one, changed version numbers and offer it as 6.0.
Basically i agree with the comments above that this means the forking of TYPO3 and as there is already very limited developer manpower this will only hurt both the products.
If you insist on forking TYPO3 then please consider keeping at least version 4.8 and think of something big when you release 6.0 not just some dust in the eyes of customers.
March 5, 2012
15:39
Hi all,
thanks to all posters who try to clarify the situation. I must admit that I'm a bit worried.
Please correct me if I'm wrong - and I hope that I am! - but in some comments (eg. #41 and #52) it was mentioned that it's planned that a great [some new name] product will be the successor of TYPO3. I personally think that no matter how great the name of this new product will be, the established brand name "TYPO3" should not be replaced in any way. I'd prefer the Apache solution mentioned in comment #51 (always prepend "TYPO3" to any product in the TYPO3 family.
Regarding the version numbers I agree to what Thomas Hempel stated in #55: Most of the customers (at least mine) just don't care about a specific version number. Those who do already asked, when TYPO3 version 5 will be released. They read some of the announcements and at this point in time I wouldn't know how to explain that this version will be skipped.
thanks to all posters who try to clarify the situation. I must admit that I'm a bit worried.
Please correct me if I'm wrong - and I hope that I am! - but in some comments (eg. #41 and #52) it was mentioned that it's planned that a great [some new name] product will be the successor of TYPO3. I personally think that no matter how great the name of this new product will be, the established brand name "TYPO3" should not be replaced in any way. I'd prefer the Apache solution mentioned in comment #51 (always prepend "TYPO3" to any product in the TYPO3 family.
Regarding the version numbers I agree to what Thomas Hempel stated in #55: Most of the customers (at least mine) just don't care about a specific version number. Those who do already asked, when TYPO3 version 5 will be released. They read some of the announcements and at this point in time I wouldn't know how to explain that this version will be skipped.
March 5, 2012
15:49
Very interesting blogpost. And let’s not forget; potentially a good development as well. Thank you dev’s, community and association for all your input and effort. We all want to make and keep this (Typo3 CMS) a good product. The reason I share this is to give the ‘decision makers’ insight.
I’m unfamiliar with php. I started learning Typoscript about 8 years ago and since I’m using it for various website projects. I’m a typical ‘end-user’, at least, that’s what I think. I work as Typo3 integrator and website editor. I write some simple extensions to adapt the system to other than general content objects. I’m an ambassador for Typo3. I promote the software and I shared my enthousiasm with other people for years.
I started worrying about the way Typo3 5.0 developed for about one year ago. I worried about the various opinions being given in blogs or news articles. I worried about the years passing by without a measurable result (for me as non PHP’er). Please don’t feel offended. Flow3 is probably a beautiful application. I’m simply not a user.
I was looking forward for the ‘next generation CMS’. I trust the Typo3 community to simply put forward the best product. I don’t want to choose. I believe in the basic Typo3 principles: the best CMS there is and the best community to rely on. I have put a hold on some projects to have the opportunity to start them in Typo3 5.0. I’m extremely willing to learn Typoscript in a new (5.0) way.
I have a feeling that forking the development of the Typo3 CMS in a current version and in a new state of the art version for a longer period then was planned for will slow down the development (again). I was sincerely in doubt whether Typo3 would be the system for me to rely on for the next years or decade’s. Because of this blog I know it is: it’s alive.
My opinion: let’s focus, join forces, start communicate Typo3, choose the best CMS, distribute budget and other resources accordingly and make Flow3 and Phoenix or 5.0 accessible for people like me as soon as possible.
You are all doing a great job! Regards, a Typo3 enthousiast from the Netherlands ..
I’m unfamiliar with php. I started learning Typoscript about 8 years ago and since I’m using it for various website projects. I’m a typical ‘end-user’, at least, that’s what I think. I work as Typo3 integrator and website editor. I write some simple extensions to adapt the system to other than general content objects. I’m an ambassador for Typo3. I promote the software and I shared my enthousiasm with other people for years.
I started worrying about the way Typo3 5.0 developed for about one year ago. I worried about the various opinions being given in blogs or news articles. I worried about the years passing by without a measurable result (for me as non PHP’er). Please don’t feel offended. Flow3 is probably a beautiful application. I’m simply not a user.
I was looking forward for the ‘next generation CMS’. I trust the Typo3 community to simply put forward the best product. I don’t want to choose. I believe in the basic Typo3 principles: the best CMS there is and the best community to rely on. I have put a hold on some projects to have the opportunity to start them in Typo3 5.0. I’m extremely willing to learn Typoscript in a new (5.0) way.
I have a feeling that forking the development of the Typo3 CMS in a current version and in a new state of the art version for a longer period then was planned for will slow down the development (again). I was sincerely in doubt whether Typo3 would be the system for me to rely on for the next years or decade’s. Because of this blog I know it is: it’s alive.
My opinion: let’s focus, join forces, start communicate Typo3, choose the best CMS, distribute budget and other resources accordingly and make Flow3 and Phoenix or 5.0 accessible for people like me as soon as possible.
You are all doing a great job! Regards, a Typo3 enthousiast from the Netherlands ..
March 5, 2012
16:50
Hello from Sri Lanka
People from Germany don't realize how it sounds to people from developing countries when you use so much money and don't deliver a product. Then you just say 'keep up the good work'?
We as a company over here can already not pay the money for the association and you only organise events in Germany and US we also can not attent because too expenive. Now you spend a million dollar on Flow3 and still no Typo3 5.0 and if people complain they are called a trolls? One could really wonder who is insulting who. Drupal helpt us organize Drupal camp and even send us money. That's how you evengalize your product. Typo3 has become a product for rich Germans!
Visit us! http://drupalanka.com/news/2012/january/1-week-until-drupalcamp-sri-lanka
People from Germany don't realize how it sounds to people from developing countries when you use so much money and don't deliver a product. Then you just say 'keep up the good work'?
We as a company over here can already not pay the money for the association and you only organise events in Germany and US we also can not attent because too expenive. Now you spend a million dollar on Flow3 and still no Typo3 5.0 and if people complain they are called a trolls? One could really wonder who is insulting who. Drupal helpt us organize Drupal camp and even send us money. That's how you evengalize your product. Typo3 has become a product for rich Germans!
Visit us! http://drupalanka.com/news/2012/january/1-week-until-drupalcamp-sri-lanka
March 5, 2012
18:57
@Xavier Perseguers: Thank you for keeping us in the loop! Frankly, I don't see this as a revolutionary issue unless your support of TYPO3 revolves around a favorite version number. Technically speaking, what you wrote measures up to my own personal expectations of what was going to happen anyway. I didn't have the Berlin Manifeto taped on my wall and have done my best balance glowing reports with reality. Here's some reasons why I'm fine with this post:
1. In some blog posts a few years back it was stated that probably only the highly used extensions would have a migration path. We have followed that model closely because even if those extensions have an old programming paradigm, someone will likely rewrite it so it can be ported to some degree or another. We're even prepared to manually migrate extension content if necessary.
2. You mentioned that "pages, content elements and even FCEs from a TYPO3 v4 will be easy to migrate to TYPO3 'Phoenix'". Yeah... no change there as I perceive it. Good news!
So, I'm just here to say that I am on board with the core team. I am not qualified to make a decision if Phoenix should be 1.0 or 6.0 because there are valid arguments on both sides. I for one intend on migrating all of our clients to it either way at some point. It has taken a very long time, but people are fessing up to it and are attempting to make positive changes to compensate and get things back on track.
May God bless you one and all!
1. In some blog posts a few years back it was stated that probably only the highly used extensions would have a migration path. We have followed that model closely because even if those extensions have an old programming paradigm, someone will likely rewrite it so it can be ported to some degree or another. We're even prepared to manually migrate extension content if necessary.
2. You mentioned that "pages, content elements and even FCEs from a TYPO3 v4 will be easy to migrate to TYPO3 'Phoenix'". Yeah... no change there as I perceive it. Good news!
So, I'm just here to say that I am on board with the core team. I am not qualified to make a decision if Phoenix should be 1.0 or 6.0 because there are valid arguments on both sides. I for one intend on migrating all of our clients to it either way at some point. It has taken a very long time, but people are fessing up to it and are attempting to make positive changes to compensate and get things back on track.
May God bless you one and all!
March 5, 2012
19:20
Sri Lanka? LOL, dear Geethan Malthotra, who doesn't exist anywhere in the web - why is your IP (93.174.93.x) located in the Netherlands ;-)
BTW: There is T3CON Asia this year in Cambodia http://news.typo3.org/news/article/first-typo3-conference-in-asia/
BTW: There is T3CON Asia this year in Cambodia http://news.typo3.org/news/article/first-typo3-conference-in-asia/
March 5, 2012
21:22
In my opinion (and I recognize some discussion about that on T3BOARD) it is a good decision. I hope that discussion will lead to a better product all in all. I'll provide some features to TYPO3 6.0 to help for its success. Lets see what what going on.
March 5, 2012
21:45
I'm realy shocked about this information, it will spread many confusions in the community AND by our customers.
I can accept the new name for Phoenix under the brand TYPO3 [some new name] with a starting version number by 1.0.0 (mayor.minor.bugfix/security)
But the brand for the actual software is not only TYPO3 , but TYPO3 v4 and in this branch NOW is no place for a version 6,7,8 ...
In the past all companys, working with TYPO3, communicate the informations to customers, that the next GREAT step is the new v5 branch (that this branch had his own new name, that is possible to be communicated to customers), but noone could seriosly communicate that a step to a v6 (possibly earlier then [some new name]) will released so fast (because the customer expected a MUCH MORE BIG step, than to the v5 we told him in the past...
My opinion (and please realy think about it and use a democratic process in the community) is:
[some new name] 1.0 - is OK,
but at THIS time go on with 4.9.x , 4.9.x , 4.10.x , 4.11.x !!! in the TYPO3 v4 user community it is well learned that the second number is a mayor release.
Maybe, in 2-3 years, when [some new name] is placed in the market, and the v4 brand is changed time by time to another name in the mind of users (maybe TYPO3 STD ... i have no idea), and then it is ABSOLUT necesary to have a new mayor release, THEN switch to 6 (but not at THIS time !!! only because of implementing FAL as a new feature).
...
René
I can accept the new name for Phoenix under the brand TYPO3 [some new name] with a starting version number by 1.0.0 (mayor.minor.bugfix/security)
But the brand for the actual software is not only TYPO3 , but TYPO3 v4 and in this branch NOW is no place for a version 6,7,8 ...
In the past all companys, working with TYPO3, communicate the informations to customers, that the next GREAT step is the new v5 branch (that this branch had his own new name, that is possible to be communicated to customers), but noone could seriosly communicate that a step to a v6 (possibly earlier then [some new name]) will released so fast (because the customer expected a MUCH MORE BIG step, than to the v5 we told him in the past...
My opinion (and please realy think about it and use a democratic process in the community) is:
[some new name] 1.0 - is OK,
but at THIS time go on with 4.9.x , 4.9.x , 4.10.x , 4.11.x !!! in the TYPO3 v4 user community it is well learned that the second number is a mayor release.
Maybe, in 2-3 years, when [some new name] is placed in the market, and the v4 brand is changed time by time to another name in the mind of users (maybe TYPO3 STD ... i have no idea), and then it is ABSOLUT necesary to have a new mayor release, THEN switch to 6 (but not at THIS time !!! only because of implementing FAL as a new feature).
...
René
March 5, 2012
21:54
Dear all,
I read thru the long posts, and do want to thank al constructive postings here. I am disappointed by the tone of some posts, I wonder why this is necessary. I am very short on time (because I do have to deliver some unpaid work to the TYPO3 project ;-) SCNR) but I do want to take some time and clarify things:
a.) the perestoika project cost about 2500.- EUR The T3A paid some external people for the new bylaws and paid some train tickets for the people that attended. My company paid for the rooms and invitd evryone for lunch during the sessions.
b.) @Sander: The 800k EUR for FLOW3 is plain wrong, as well as the 80.000 for perestroica was.
c.) The money for the community manager (again wrong) is IMHO the best spent money for the association.
d.) @Sander: If using numbers in two postings: Try to use the same ones, this makes it less easy to prove you wrong. If you contradict yourself in one Webpage, it is not easy taking you serious.
e.) @Sanders and @Mathias Schreiber: It is correct, that you _did_ great community work, and you you really _were_ involved in TYPO3 community work. But as you correctly stated: This is past. I was asking you @Mathias Schreiber to help us some time ago: @Mathes promised to help, but after the 8th reminder in a row, I gave up. So we still do not have a microsoft installer deliverd by @Mathes.
f.) To me it really is somehow a contradiction to ask for _one_ CTO that delivers wise decisions (btw: How can he be found?) and in the same posting ask for more democracy and community involvement on such things.
g.) To me, many, if not all the importand tasks are done in the community. We have great teams, and as an association we try to help them as good as we can. But money is only one part of it. I did not get a single cent from "the association". In fact my company pays all my train and flight tickets to all board work I have to go to. "The association" has way to less money to pay for all things. So if you compare us to drupal: See how fast they can burn the money, and what "art of software" they deliver. My company is in a project, where we use FLOW3 with TYPO3. It is _awesome_ what FLOW3 can do, and it is _great_ how good it fits to TYPO3. Sure we need a new frontend to FLOW3, but this is developed and will arise. In the meantime: Use FLOW3 to see and prove that it is business ready. And than think again how few bucks where spent on it, compared to drupalimisfit.
h.) Accusations by Sander that the support of the new TYPO3 version (however it is called) was illegal is not correct either, but this accusation is as smart to me as if one would say: "TYPO3 V4 is only the FE and look and feel!" To me: 80% is behind the sceens, and this is what FLOW3 is to Phoenix. 80% is behind the scenes and done. We "only" need a frontend. And this time it is really only 20%. But the team is IMHO too small, that we could use lurkers instead of workers at this time. So if you are _really_ willing to spend your time for the next few years on the next new CMS, than feel free to contact the known channels.
i.) We are desperately looking for people that _help_ and not only complain _after_ tehy heared some false rumors. At this point again: Many thanks to all people that already _help_. Please continue and do not get confused buy people that do live still in the past.
j.) According the naming scheme: Rethink about it, rethink about the other opportunities that my arise and do assume, that this was thought thru for quite some time, and needed face2face discussions and not shitstorms in Twitter/Blog/whatever. That beeing written: Please let me do the needed work for TYPO3.
Yours truly
Juergen
I read thru the long posts, and do want to thank al constructive postings here. I am disappointed by the tone of some posts, I wonder why this is necessary. I am very short on time (because I do have to deliver some unpaid work to the TYPO3 project ;-) SCNR) but I do want to take some time and clarify things:
a.) the perestoika project cost about 2500.- EUR The T3A paid some external people for the new bylaws and paid some train tickets for the people that attended. My company paid for the rooms and invitd evryone for lunch during the sessions.
b.) @Sander: The 800k EUR for FLOW3 is plain wrong, as well as the 80.000 for perestroica was.
c.) The money for the community manager (again wrong) is IMHO the best spent money for the association.
d.) @Sander: If using numbers in two postings: Try to use the same ones, this makes it less easy to prove you wrong. If you contradict yourself in one Webpage, it is not easy taking you serious.
e.) @Sanders and @Mathias Schreiber: It is correct, that you _did_ great community work, and you you really _were_ involved in TYPO3 community work. But as you correctly stated: This is past. I was asking you @Mathias Schreiber to help us some time ago: @Mathes promised to help, but after the 8th reminder in a row, I gave up. So we still do not have a microsoft installer deliverd by @Mathes.
f.) To me it really is somehow a contradiction to ask for _one_ CTO that delivers wise decisions (btw: How can he be found?) and in the same posting ask for more democracy and community involvement on such things.
g.) To me, many, if not all the importand tasks are done in the community. We have great teams, and as an association we try to help them as good as we can. But money is only one part of it. I did not get a single cent from "the association". In fact my company pays all my train and flight tickets to all board work I have to go to. "The association" has way to less money to pay for all things. So if you compare us to drupal: See how fast they can burn the money, and what "art of software" they deliver. My company is in a project, where we use FLOW3 with TYPO3. It is _awesome_ what FLOW3 can do, and it is _great_ how good it fits to TYPO3. Sure we need a new frontend to FLOW3, but this is developed and will arise. In the meantime: Use FLOW3 to see and prove that it is business ready. And than think again how few bucks where spent on it, compared to drupalimisfit.
h.) Accusations by Sander that the support of the new TYPO3 version (however it is called) was illegal is not correct either, but this accusation is as smart to me as if one would say: "TYPO3 V4 is only the FE and look and feel!" To me: 80% is behind the sceens, and this is what FLOW3 is to Phoenix. 80% is behind the scenes and done. We "only" need a frontend. And this time it is really only 20%. But the team is IMHO too small, that we could use lurkers instead of workers at this time. So if you are _really_ willing to spend your time for the next few years on the next new CMS, than feel free to contact the known channels.
i.) We are desperately looking for people that _help_ and not only complain _after_ tehy heared some false rumors. At this point again: Many thanks to all people that already _help_. Please continue and do not get confused buy people that do live still in the past.
j.) According the naming scheme: Rethink about it, rethink about the other opportunities that my arise and do assume, that this was thought thru for quite some time, and needed face2face discussions and not shitstorms in Twitter/Blog/whatever. That beeing written: Please let me do the needed work for TYPO3.
Yours truly
Juergen
March 5, 2012
22:51
Some days ago as the post was released I just had time to read the post itself and Patrick's comment. I was really afraid regarding the future of TYPO3 and my daily work. But after reading all the comments I'm feeling somehow better about the next big steps.
It's important for us and the brand TYPO3 to move on. The version numbers are not that important especially not for our customers. We need a reliable technical base and a new level of quality assurance. Agencies have to prove that they are able to cope with TYPO3 and the project requirements. IMHO this is the biggest problem of TYPO3. In the last view years I've seen many TYPO3 installations which had nothing in common with the concepts of TYPO3. The "integrator" didn't know anything about the structure and elements etc. E.g. the main navigation was a static HTML element "coded" manually (using TS - wow). Maybe that's why the market shares of TYPO3 are decreasing steadily. So I like the idea of taking the certification exam again as soon as a new version has been released.
Let's compare TYPO3 with other enterprise open source projects. Let's take Magento for instance. There are 3 versions of Magento (community, pro and enterprise). So what's the big deal? The Magento products (more or less) fit to the customers' needs. Why not seeing Flow3 and Phoenix (in the beginning) as some very flexible system which shouldn't be used for a small website with just some hundred pages and tt_news? Okay, Magneto is not the best example since all versions are based on Zend... The point is having different versions will help us to find the best product for our customer.
I like the idea seeing Flow3 as a research and development project. Each and every company has to do some research in order to evolve - and this is quite expensive (maybe not that expensive as Sanders wants us to believe ;) ). Tons of features have been backported with the help of all the great guys being part of the different core teams. Thank you for all your effort. It was always a pleasure working with TYPO3 (let's say since 4.0). Did I tell you that I've upgraded an old installation from 4.1 to 4.6 last week? Was no big deal. And now send me all your fun stories about updating Drupal, WordPress, xt-Commerce or Magento...
We all need Flow3 and Phoenix somehow someday. We don't want to go back to peeBase. So please let's forget about all the problems we had and stop discussing things we can't change anymore.
Thanks, Björn
It's important for us and the brand TYPO3 to move on. The version numbers are not that important especially not for our customers. We need a reliable technical base and a new level of quality assurance. Agencies have to prove that they are able to cope with TYPO3 and the project requirements. IMHO this is the biggest problem of TYPO3. In the last view years I've seen many TYPO3 installations which had nothing in common with the concepts of TYPO3. The "integrator" didn't know anything about the structure and elements etc. E.g. the main navigation was a static HTML element "coded" manually (using TS - wow). Maybe that's why the market shares of TYPO3 are decreasing steadily. So I like the idea of taking the certification exam again as soon as a new version has been released.
Let's compare TYPO3 with other enterprise open source projects. Let's take Magento for instance. There are 3 versions of Magento (community, pro and enterprise). So what's the big deal? The Magento products (more or less) fit to the customers' needs. Why not seeing Flow3 and Phoenix (in the beginning) as some very flexible system which shouldn't be used for a small website with just some hundred pages and tt_news? Okay, Magneto is not the best example since all versions are based on Zend... The point is having different versions will help us to find the best product for our customer.
I like the idea seeing Flow3 as a research and development project. Each and every company has to do some research in order to evolve - and this is quite expensive (maybe not that expensive as Sanders wants us to believe ;) ). Tons of features have been backported with the help of all the great guys being part of the different core teams. Thank you for all your effort. It was always a pleasure working with TYPO3 (let's say since 4.0). Did I tell you that I've upgraded an old installation from 4.1 to 4.6 last week? Was no big deal. And now send me all your fun stories about updating Drupal, WordPress, xt-Commerce or Magento...
We all need Flow3 and Phoenix somehow someday. We don't want to go back to peeBase. So please let's forget about all the problems we had and stop discussing things we can't change anymore.
Thanks, Björn
March 6, 2012
09:44
Without any judgment this, as wrong or right it may be, was announced at the worst place and in the worst form possible.
When there is such a huge change you should make a more "promotional" announcement to "sell" this.
What a shame...
When there is such a huge change you should make a more "promotional" announcement to "sell" this.
What a shame...
March 6, 2012
11:57
Well done. If I'd have been confronted with that sort of question, I'd have been very happy getting to that result. At least, I do not see any better scenario for the problem.
Thanks guys for spending your free time on this, it must have been quite some work to get to this point.
Finally... It's just about version numbers and names, right? ;-)
Jan-Hendrik
Thanks guys for spending your free time on this, it must have been quite some work to get to this point.
Finally... It's just about version numbers and names, right? ;-)
Jan-Hendrik
March 6, 2012
12:34
@Jürgen:
I strongly suggest you do your homework before accusing me of doing no community work (BLE, FAL etc.)
I don't request budgets for that stuff either, so I guess we're even, are we?
Plus... maybe you just forgot sending me the contact info about the guy that wanted to do additional testing on the installer thingy? :)
Plus, if Sanders numbers are plain wrong, good.
So I guess you won't mind officially stating the budget spent on v5 development up to now.
Since most of our arguments are being ignored I now ask for explicit answers to these (maybe that helps):
a) How much budget has been spent over the last 8 years for something Symfony2 can do just as good?
b) Why not spent just 1 year of v5 budget for getting things done in v4?
c) Why not have a CTO in charge of a strategy? I think Stucki fx. You have to admit that there is no mid-term strategy in place right now.
d) Why not have deliverables in terms of fixed functionality on a fixed date (just for payed work of course)?
Regarding the legal problem:
Having a product that works WITH TYPO3 is something different than a product that TYPO3 does not work with.
Know what your problem is?
When Sander or I raise concerns like these you see yourself personally attacked.
But basically we just try to warn you of something you might not be aware of in order to have you NOT being sued - still you think we want to do you wrong - sad.
You're basically right with what you stated, but re-think this for a second:
T3A may spend budget on a TYPO3 product.
Now you want to call TYPO3 v5 something ELSE than that.
This could provide an attack vector law-wise and we try to save you from this.
But hey... over the last years all our "i told you so" were ignored as well, although we were right.
I just like you too much to see you (the guy in charge on paper) being confronted with a lawsuit.
Bottomline:
I'd like to get some feedback on my concerns :)
I strongly suggest you do your homework before accusing me of doing no community work (BLE, FAL etc.)
I don't request budgets for that stuff either, so I guess we're even, are we?
Plus... maybe you just forgot sending me the contact info about the guy that wanted to do additional testing on the installer thingy? :)
Plus, if Sanders numbers are plain wrong, good.
So I guess you won't mind officially stating the budget spent on v5 development up to now.
Since most of our arguments are being ignored I now ask for explicit answers to these (maybe that helps):
a) How much budget has been spent over the last 8 years for something Symfony2 can do just as good?
b) Why not spent just 1 year of v5 budget for getting things done in v4?
c) Why not have a CTO in charge of a strategy? I think Stucki fx. You have to admit that there is no mid-term strategy in place right now.
d) Why not have deliverables in terms of fixed functionality on a fixed date (just for payed work of course)?
Regarding the legal problem:
Having a product that works WITH TYPO3 is something different than a product that TYPO3 does not work with.
Know what your problem is?
When Sander or I raise concerns like these you see yourself personally attacked.
But basically we just try to warn you of something you might not be aware of in order to have you NOT being sued - still you think we want to do you wrong - sad.
You're basically right with what you stated, but re-think this for a second:
T3A may spend budget on a TYPO3 product.
Now you want to call TYPO3 v5 something ELSE than that.
This could provide an attack vector law-wise and we try to save you from this.
But hey... over the last years all our "i told you so" were ignored as well, although we were right.
I just like you too much to see you (the guy in charge on paper) being confronted with a lawsuit.
Bottomline:
I'd like to get some feedback on my concerns :)
March 6, 2012
12:39
hi björn, thank you for your sensible post. if you are
interested in the real budget numbers please have a look at:
http://association.typo3.org/financial-statements/ref/assoc/
interested in the real budget numbers please have a look at:
http://association.typo3.org/financial-statements/ref/assoc/
March 6, 2012
13:43
Uhm, TYPO3v5 development is in the balance sheet since 2008 and if I add the numbers it was ~ 800.000
Only error is the balance sheet is in CHF not EUR...
Only error is the balance sheet is in CHF not EUR...
March 6, 2012
15:27
hi adreas, one statement here was 800.000 euro for flow3. like you say euro is wrong, you have to calculate with the regarding exchange rate for the regarding year to get euro. but even more important the statement here i'm referring to was: *for flow3*. as long as a statement is e.g. "X was spent for Y" and X is wrong as well as Y, every discussion must necessarily lead to some kind of confusion and my intention is to clear this up. i like best to point to the original data so everybody can check, since this is the basic resource. this includes that we read carefully. regards gina
March 6, 2012
15:39
so in order to speed things up:
Wanted: TYPO3 v5
Result: FLOW3
In another post it says "800k for v5 development", yet unanswered, you just point out "FLOW3 was wrong - case closed". ;-)
800k CHF roughly equals 500k EUR (rounded down).
At least in my world, half a million is still a lot of money in under 4 years, but hey... who am I to judge, right? :)
Wanted: TYPO3 v5
Result: FLOW3
In another post it says "800k for v5 development", yet unanswered, you just point out "FLOW3 was wrong - case closed". ;-)
800k CHF roughly equals 500k EUR (rounded down).
At least in my world, half a million is still a lot of money in under 4 years, but hey... who am I to judge, right? :)
March 6, 2012
19:37
hey you guys,
I am trying quiet hard to stay away from this. ;-) just this one thing: instead of fighting about who is the bad guys who as all the wrong numbers, why don't you just have a look at them?
From my calculations, FLOW3 / v5 cost us € 675,416.01 until 31.12.2011.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArI4k3Xa07HidHZ5WUZwSENlVXktc1g2OXZqY2Yy[..] foertel
I am trying quiet hard to stay away from this. ;-) just this one thing: instead of fighting about who is the bad guys who as all the wrong numbers, why don't you just have a look at them?
From my calculations, FLOW3 / v5 cost us € 675,416.01 until 31.12.2011.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArI4k3Xa07HidHZ5WUZwSENlVXktc1g2OXZqY2Yy[..] foertel
March 6, 2012
19:45
Sorry, here is the link shortened.
http://bit.ly/wxwPDL
regards, foertel
http://bit.ly/wxwPDL
regards, foertel
March 6, 2012
20:25
Well that is quite a number.
As a paying association member I'd really like to know what exactly that amount was used for.
Where's the product this money was given for?
As a paying association member I'd really like to know what exactly that amount was used for.
Where's the product this money was given for?
March 6, 2012
20:36
Thanks a lot for the injection of facts, Felix. I suppose the €800K isn't so far off if you include 1Q2012. Sander's numbers were not bad after all.
The number we were looking for is: roughly €675,000 spent so far.
The questions remain: Was this money spent in accordance with T3A regulations? If yes, then are continued costs (at the current level) for v5 wise - and justified?
The number we were looking for is: roughly €675,000 spent so far.
The questions remain: Was this money spent in accordance with T3A regulations? If yes, then are continued costs (at the current level) for v5 wise - and justified?
March 6, 2012
22:54
Hi,
I indeed made the mistake to change Swiss Francs for Euro's since the first form years or so the T3A calculated everything in Swiss franks. Sorry for that.
The total amount spend by the T3A since 2005 is about CHF 2.600.000 or 2.1 million euro. You can count that by totaling the financial statements on the T3A website.
Then look at the following info graph: http://bit.ly/zeyc5Y
Imagine that before 2005 not anybody within the TYPO3 community received ANY payment. None of us had ANY company logo on the typo3.org website, there were a lot of small events that were for free or we paid ourselves for everything.
Since the erection of the T3A €2.100.000,- has been spend on 5.0, 4.x, typo3.org, community management, certification, administration, events and a lot more.
I don't say that all this money has been spend badly but for me it hurts a lot that as you can see, with all this spending, the popularity of TYPO3 nowadays is lower then it was in 2004! Then I can only draw the conclusion that what goes not very well is the one thing the T3A was erected for: to build a new and better TYPO3 version.
In fact we can only give a HUGE APPLAUSE to the guys and girls from the 4.x team. They've done much a better job for only a fraction of the money.
Read also http://www.waterandstone.com/sites/default/files/2010%20OSCMS%20Report.pdf for quit a realistic view of todays situation in the open source CMS market. I did send this to the board of the T3A and the Steering Committee in 2011. Their reply? 'What does a report like this mean anyhow, it's from some bureau of a third world country. '
Well for me, once responsible for the worldwide marketing of TYPO3, dreaming of 'world domination' as Claudio Cathomen remembered to me very well lately, this is very, very painful and I simply cannot and will not walk away from it.
We were way ahead of Drupal once, look at them now: http://bit.ly/AyrAjR
Joomla? After Mambo was forked and Joomla! came to the horizon we were five times bigger then them. Look at it now:http://bit.ly/Aul1Po
For me this is threatening my business and I care to much for TYPO3 anyhow, so this downfall is not acceptable and I will fight it until things go better.
I'm writing a short fantasy Parable about the history of the TYPO3 community. That might help making it more understandable then all the facts and figures. Will post it here..
I indeed made the mistake to change Swiss Francs for Euro's since the first form years or so the T3A calculated everything in Swiss franks. Sorry for that.
The total amount spend by the T3A since 2005 is about CHF 2.600.000 or 2.1 million euro. You can count that by totaling the financial statements on the T3A website.
Then look at the following info graph: http://bit.ly/zeyc5Y
Imagine that before 2005 not anybody within the TYPO3 community received ANY payment. None of us had ANY company logo on the typo3.org website, there were a lot of small events that were for free or we paid ourselves for everything.
Since the erection of the T3A €2.100.000,- has been spend on 5.0, 4.x, typo3.org, community management, certification, administration, events and a lot more.
I don't say that all this money has been spend badly but for me it hurts a lot that as you can see, with all this spending, the popularity of TYPO3 nowadays is lower then it was in 2004! Then I can only draw the conclusion that what goes not very well is the one thing the T3A was erected for: to build a new and better TYPO3 version.
In fact we can only give a HUGE APPLAUSE to the guys and girls from the 4.x team. They've done much a better job for only a fraction of the money.
Read also http://www.waterandstone.com/sites/default/files/2010%20OSCMS%20Report.pdf for quit a realistic view of todays situation in the open source CMS market. I did send this to the board of the T3A and the Steering Committee in 2011. Their reply? 'What does a report like this mean anyhow, it's from some bureau of a third world country. '
Well for me, once responsible for the worldwide marketing of TYPO3, dreaming of 'world domination' as Claudio Cathomen remembered to me very well lately, this is very, very painful and I simply cannot and will not walk away from it.
We were way ahead of Drupal once, look at them now: http://bit.ly/AyrAjR
Joomla? After Mambo was forked and Joomla! came to the horizon we were five times bigger then them. Look at it now:http://bit.ly/Aul1Po
For me this is threatening my business and I care to much for TYPO3 anyhow, so this downfall is not acceptable and I will fight it until things go better.
I'm writing a short fantasy Parable about the history of the TYPO3 community. That might help making it more understandable then all the facts and figures. Will post it here..
March 7, 2012
08:45
The certification team will discuss the version number problem today and will inform officially how we are going to solve this problem.
Thanks for your patience.
Thanks for your patience.
March 7, 2012
12:22
Wow. This post and its comment taught me more about TYPO3 than the last 3 years.
I must confess I pretty shocked right now. And I noticed that some of the questions are continuously ignored. Which is pretty bad.
I agree with Claus, Andreas, Patrick and a few others: Just say "TYPO3 5.0 is not Phoenix, we're sorry", do not change version numbers and release Phoenix as TYPO3 XYZ 1.0
FAl is a big and fantastic new feature for developers but its hardly visible for our users. This is my opinion as a developer and integrator.
@Peter Proell
Just saying it was a community decision (and writing "its proven!") does not prove anything. Was it discussed in public? No? Than its not a community decision.
I must confess I pretty shocked right now. And I noticed that some of the questions are continuously ignored. Which is pretty bad.
I agree with Claus, Andreas, Patrick and a few others: Just say "TYPO3 5.0 is not Phoenix, we're sorry", do not change version numbers and release Phoenix as TYPO3 XYZ 1.0
FAl is a big and fantastic new feature for developers but its hardly visible for our users. This is my opinion as a developer and integrator.
@Peter Proell
Just saying it was a community decision (and writing "its proven!") does not prove anything. Was it discussed in public? No? Than its not a community decision.
March 7, 2012
23:06
Hi there,
I once was very interested in FLOW3, Phoenix and the future. I even provided a shell script to automatically download and install Phoenix and the Demo site.
When I showed this to Robert on T3DD11 and reminded him later at T3CON11 he would always shout something like "Cool and very interesting, I will have a look at this". He never did. "Really cool" people would.
These days I am saying good-bye to TYPO3, at least in my payed work. I am very sorry to say that I am not sad leaving it. It once was brilliant, it took my heart in a few days. I earned a good amount of money with integrating it since I sold my first website created with 3.6.something. Big thanks to all you developing girls and guys! You made my life brighter! Big thanks to Kasper for having the stamina to push this product nearly to perfection (2007).
Unfortunately since Kasper left nobody seemed to be interested in keeping v4 usable. So right now we have a very good piece of software with an interface that surely was nicely colored but still keeps on these damn 16px diskette symbols. I tried hard to find such a small image link in a wordpress installation but couldn't find anything smaller than 20px. I believe in 2007 we had 17" screens? Then we were in the need of space. Nowadays our customers have much bigger screens but no one tries to give them a real good look and feel. Why not spending a small amount of the money to maintain v4, make it look and feel better? Then we would still have a product that can stand next to wordpress, drupal a.s.o. Remember, the decision makers have most of the times no clue which code produces their website. I would even say they don't care as long as the product is hype, chic and sexy.
Cmon, make it hype, chic and sexy again!
All the best,
Markus
I once was very interested in FLOW3, Phoenix and the future. I even provided a shell script to automatically download and install Phoenix and the Demo site.
When I showed this to Robert on T3DD11 and reminded him later at T3CON11 he would always shout something like "Cool and very interesting, I will have a look at this". He never did. "Really cool" people would.
These days I am saying good-bye to TYPO3, at least in my payed work. I am very sorry to say that I am not sad leaving it. It once was brilliant, it took my heart in a few days. I earned a good amount of money with integrating it since I sold my first website created with 3.6.something. Big thanks to all you developing girls and guys! You made my life brighter! Big thanks to Kasper for having the stamina to push this product nearly to perfection (2007).
Unfortunately since Kasper left nobody seemed to be interested in keeping v4 usable. So right now we have a very good piece of software with an interface that surely was nicely colored but still keeps on these damn 16px diskette symbols. I tried hard to find such a small image link in a wordpress installation but couldn't find anything smaller than 20px. I believe in 2007 we had 17" screens? Then we were in the need of space. Nowadays our customers have much bigger screens but no one tries to give them a real good look and feel. Why not spending a small amount of the money to maintain v4, make it look and feel better? Then we would still have a product that can stand next to wordpress, drupal a.s.o. Remember, the decision makers have most of the times no clue which code produces their website. I would even say they don't care as long as the product is hype, chic and sexy.
Cmon, make it hype, chic and sexy again!
All the best,
Markus
March 8, 2012
10:16
@Markus Bucher
Kasper's main reason for stepping back was that he was overloaded with work and requests by the community. The TYPO3 project hasn't become smaller since then and the tasks are not smaller either. So, if I forget about looking at something, it's plainly because I can't. I have only limited energy to share and went beyond my limits several times already. I still receive dozens of emails a day with request like "can you look at my Template Selector improvement patch?" and it's pretty hard to stay focussed on Phoenix work and write friendly answers at the same time.
Sorry that I'm not cool.
Kasper's main reason for stepping back was that he was overloaded with work and requests by the community. The TYPO3 project hasn't become smaller since then and the tasks are not smaller either. So, if I forget about looking at something, it's plainly because I can't. I have only limited energy to share and went beyond my limits several times already. I still receive dozens of emails a day with request like "can you look at my Template Selector improvement patch?" and it's pretty hard to stay focussed on Phoenix work and write friendly answers at the same time.
Sorry that I'm not cool.
March 8, 2012
10:19
Just to inform; there is also a discussion about this article in the English mailinglist.
March 8, 2012
21:37
Hey Markus, why don't you share your script on the mailing lists, that would be "really cool" ;)
Sounds interesting!
Sounds interesting!
March 9, 2012
00:13
@Robert Lemke
Didn't want to offend you. Sorry.
I do know that you had and have lots of work, no doubt about it. But if you don't feel as if you could look at it, don't say it. Don't promise something that is unlikely to be hold. I would in no way have been disappointed if you said something like "Listen, write an email to the mailinglist they will be happy to have a look at it, I don't think I can find the time".
@Bastian Waidelich
http://forge.typo3.org/projects/show/package-phoenixinstaller
Not up-to-date...
Will write a message in mailinglist.
Didn't want to offend you. Sorry.
I do know that you had and have lots of work, no doubt about it. But if you don't feel as if you could look at it, don't say it. Don't promise something that is unlikely to be hold. I would in no way have been disappointed if you said something like "Listen, write an email to the mailinglist they will be happy to have a look at it, I don't think I can find the time".
@Bastian Waidelich
http://forge.typo3.org/projects/show/package-phoenixinstaller
Not up-to-date...
Will write a message in mailinglist.
March 9, 2012
12:06
I think the least participant you can blame is Robert Lembke. As far as I see his impact and work on FLOW3 from my professional developer view, he and the guys around him have done an outstanding work and it would be an almost un-substitutal loss if Robert gets offended and looses his motivation. So please Robert, one of my programming heros these days - stay cool as u are :)
March 9, 2012
16:06
Like I promised I wrote a Parable about the TYPO3 Community.
Maybe this form will work to make people understand what goes wrong here.
The first Part is here, the whole thing can be downloaded with a link under this post.
It's not meant to offend people but to open your eyes and make you see the bigger picture.
Ciao, Sander
----------------------------------
The Rise and Fall of a Soccer Community
Once upon a time in Europe, you had this really great soccer team.
Their team captain had started the team in Denmark and asked on the interweb if others would join him. There would be no formal Club, no salary for the players and the supporters could watch the game for free. But we were going to have a great ballgame, build new friendships en have a really great time so the captain promised. He had a great vision on soccer and how we could play the game in the best way possible. He was not the best soccer player himself but a great captain, team builder, visionary and good friend for everybody.
Some good players from Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Holland and Italy teamed up with him and by doing so the first team was formed and they started to play ball....
Continue reading here:
http://bit.ly/ywwr2F
Maybe this form will work to make people understand what goes wrong here.
The first Part is here, the whole thing can be downloaded with a link under this post.
It's not meant to offend people but to open your eyes and make you see the bigger picture.
Ciao, Sander
----------------------------------
The Rise and Fall of a Soccer Community
Once upon a time in Europe, you had this really great soccer team.
Their team captain had started the team in Denmark and asked on the interweb if others would join him. There would be no formal Club, no salary for the players and the supporters could watch the game for free. But we were going to have a great ballgame, build new friendships en have a really great time so the captain promised. He had a great vision on soccer and how we could play the game in the best way possible. He was not the best soccer player himself but a great captain, team builder, visionary and good friend for everybody.
Some good players from Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Holland and Italy teamed up with him and by doing so the first team was formed and they started to play ball....
Continue reading here:
http://bit.ly/ywwr2F
March 9, 2012
20:20
Thanks Sander, you obviously hit quite some points there. Though I am afraid nothing will change and things will get worse...
March 10, 2012
02:39
Sander, if you(*) wouldn't put so many bricks into the lives of some active and important TYPO3 community members, they could work more productive and move TYPO3 faster into various directions.
Yours
Steffen
(*) this statement is targeted to Sander exclusively and personally, not to all the other people commenting here, who's opinion and ideas are appreciated.
Yours
Steffen
(*) this statement is targeted to Sander exclusively and personally, not to all the other people commenting here, who's opinion and ideas are appreciated.
March 10, 2012
21:17
@Sander (and the others who are interested):
I also read the report on the CMS market from waterandstone and I did not find that very useful. Making assumptions about market share from Google trends or searches is more like "guessing".
There is another and IMHO much better data source: take a look at cmscrawler.com
They crawl real websites and figure out the CMS being used (if any). Until recently, they only had data for European countries, but now have started to crawl "the world".
Although they don't cover all websites yet, they've got some good data based on 20 million actual sites. They are adding some 10,000 sites per day, so the data will become even better.
At least in Europe TYPO3 is still doing pretty well, ranked at #5
Other than that: I think you raised some valid points, although I don't agree with all of them (as I also do not agree with all points the other people wrote).
In my opinion TYPO3 4.x (or 6.x or whatever the version number will be) still has a great future and lots of potential. It will continue to live and I'm sure a lot of good features and improvements will be implemented in the coming years.
FLOW3 has been praised quite a lot from those relatively few (compated with installed TYPO3 base) who used it in real projects. It will be interesting to see how Phoenix has progressed when spring #8 is coming out in 4-5 weeks.
After T3DD12 in mid April we will probably all have a better picture about the current state of Phoenix.
I also read the report on the CMS market from waterandstone and I did not find that very useful. Making assumptions about market share from Google trends or searches is more like "guessing".
There is another and IMHO much better data source: take a look at cmscrawler.com
They crawl real websites and figure out the CMS being used (if any). Until recently, they only had data for European countries, but now have started to crawl "the world".
Although they don't cover all websites yet, they've got some good data based on 20 million actual sites. They are adding some 10,000 sites per day, so the data will become even better.
At least in Europe TYPO3 is still doing pretty well, ranked at #5
Other than that: I think you raised some valid points, although I don't agree with all of them (as I also do not agree with all points the other people wrote).
In my opinion TYPO3 4.x (or 6.x or whatever the version number will be) still has a great future and lots of potential. It will continue to live and I'm sure a lot of good features and improvements will be implemented in the coming years.
FLOW3 has been praised quite a lot from those relatively few (compated with installed TYPO3 base) who used it in real projects. It will be interesting to see how Phoenix has progressed when spring #8 is coming out in 4-5 weeks.
After T3DD12 in mid April we will probably all have a better picture about the current state of Phoenix.
March 11, 2012
20:20
I am a developer and I have been using and following Typo3 since v3.5.0. I don't like the break in numbering scheme and that v5 will not be following up on v4.
Firstly it starts with the wrong argument. From the marketing team: Some people outside the community where heard saying that typo3 is loosing momentum because "they're still at v4 for years". Well, if these people didn't take the effort to look enough into the project and the steps taken in v4, we should not take them seriously at all! Taking too much notice from people and opinions outside our own community is deadly imho. Especially if it involves NOT asking our own community... The numbering scheme has been good for years, and now it isn't anymore? Obviously the outside world has changed. Mozilla and google started upping mayors like crazy, well, good for them! This might have caused this perception of a lack of movement by the non-informed. Should we care? I think not. Instead we should be steady and reliable!
Secondly, I have read in this blogpost and related articles no good reasons why v5 cannot be the successor of v4. Off course, the underlying architecture will be completely different, and I expect nothing else from a complete rewrite and (b)reach for new "state of the art". So, point 5 of the manifesto: 'easy migrating' cannot be granted fully. As Xavier writes "I heard of real-life projects that were initially created for Extbase and were then migrated to FLOW3 without real hassle." So, migrating will not be 'easy' but it can be done. Specially the sites with low extension use won't be that difficult, right? Then there's the "breaking backwards compatibility" argument in compliance with the "stops mayor improvements" argument. Well, those arguments are true. But they emerge from the fact that after all those years v5 is not there yet! The ever dragging v5 has become such a "fact of life" within the developer teams that they want to go around it and put mayor improvements into v4 and now are hindered by the numbering scheme and the promisses it made. Well I think its good to keep promisses... And the v5 team has failed to follow up on theirs and consequently we have failed to deliver to our users and customers. I read above that v5 is at 80 percent. And I read that there are developers willing and able to code mayor improvements into v4. Why should those developers not be able to help finishing v5?
The current sithuation with a new "great" version in the air is a bad one, it has been dragging way too long and it should be finished as quickly as possible. For years customers have been asking why not wait the 'few' months for v5. And now it is said v4 and v5 will live along for quite a long period. This will be very bad for Typo3 as a whole. 2 nearly identical choices... people and decision makers don't like that and will easily be detracted to the next product. A product where there is just one choice, namely the latest and greatest version!
That leads me to another question raised in the reactions of this blogpost. How did we get in this sithuation? And is the leadership of the typo3 project doing a good job? This may be outside the original subject of the blogpost but the questions and answers to them are vitally important imho.
The way v5 and FLOW3 developed reminds me of some of my own projects. Especially those where I was going to make a 'brilliant' piece of software that would cure all of my(and the customers) ailments... They cost a fortune in time spent (and money in case I worked for someone else), where never ready and in the end became obsolete. Delivered some very nice software wich was used for quite some time, but in the end it was questionable if the customer would not have been better off with something ready available wich would now still have been developed...
Now, in some cases I had a manager who did not have such patience while I was working miracles. And then I got furious. After all, I did all my decisions on sound (technical) arguments (see above for the ExtJS/Sproutcore decision) and it was not my fault that things ehh... flowed like they did.
But, in hindsight, the manager was right. The lack of, for end-users, visible progress(as in features, not release scheme numbers) harmed the project-as-a-whole more then my brilliant software in the end could cure.
With that experience I think the typo3 project needs a manager or managing body wich should explicitly not be formed of developers alone. It should have the steering power to correct if the developers do their thing and go astray.
The current "forky" sithuation and its acceptance within the developer teams is not good. Nor do I agree with its use as a argument to continue with it.
But who am I? Just an old fashioned corporate kind a developer...
@ Steffen Gebert: I don't see how Sander is "putting bricks" into anybodies lives. He has put names to some of my very concerns. I know, that when you do the heavy lifting, you kind of feel like you should be exempt from critique, after all you put all your hart in it.
But in the past I have had friends who always agreed with me and friends who where willing to smack my face if I needed to wake up. Consider who I still regard as my friends?
Firstly it starts with the wrong argument. From the marketing team: Some people outside the community where heard saying that typo3 is loosing momentum because "they're still at v4 for years". Well, if these people didn't take the effort to look enough into the project and the steps taken in v4, we should not take them seriously at all! Taking too much notice from people and opinions outside our own community is deadly imho. Especially if it involves NOT asking our own community... The numbering scheme has been good for years, and now it isn't anymore? Obviously the outside world has changed. Mozilla and google started upping mayors like crazy, well, good for them! This might have caused this perception of a lack of movement by the non-informed. Should we care? I think not. Instead we should be steady and reliable!
Secondly, I have read in this blogpost and related articles no good reasons why v5 cannot be the successor of v4. Off course, the underlying architecture will be completely different, and I expect nothing else from a complete rewrite and (b)reach for new "state of the art". So, point 5 of the manifesto: 'easy migrating' cannot be granted fully. As Xavier writes "I heard of real-life projects that were initially created for Extbase and were then migrated to FLOW3 without real hassle." So, migrating will not be 'easy' but it can be done. Specially the sites with low extension use won't be that difficult, right? Then there's the "breaking backwards compatibility" argument in compliance with the "stops mayor improvements" argument. Well, those arguments are true. But they emerge from the fact that after all those years v5 is not there yet! The ever dragging v5 has become such a "fact of life" within the developer teams that they want to go around it and put mayor improvements into v4 and now are hindered by the numbering scheme and the promisses it made. Well I think its good to keep promisses... And the v5 team has failed to follow up on theirs and consequently we have failed to deliver to our users and customers. I read above that v5 is at 80 percent. And I read that there are developers willing and able to code mayor improvements into v4. Why should those developers not be able to help finishing v5?
The current sithuation with a new "great" version in the air is a bad one, it has been dragging way too long and it should be finished as quickly as possible. For years customers have been asking why not wait the 'few' months for v5. And now it is said v4 and v5 will live along for quite a long period. This will be very bad for Typo3 as a whole. 2 nearly identical choices... people and decision makers don't like that and will easily be detracted to the next product. A product where there is just one choice, namely the latest and greatest version!
That leads me to another question raised in the reactions of this blogpost. How did we get in this sithuation? And is the leadership of the typo3 project doing a good job? This may be outside the original subject of the blogpost but the questions and answers to them are vitally important imho.
The way v5 and FLOW3 developed reminds me of some of my own projects. Especially those where I was going to make a 'brilliant' piece of software that would cure all of my(and the customers) ailments... They cost a fortune in time spent (and money in case I worked for someone else), where never ready and in the end became obsolete. Delivered some very nice software wich was used for quite some time, but in the end it was questionable if the customer would not have been better off with something ready available wich would now still have been developed...
Now, in some cases I had a manager who did not have such patience while I was working miracles. And then I got furious. After all, I did all my decisions on sound (technical) arguments (see above for the ExtJS/Sproutcore decision) and it was not my fault that things ehh... flowed like they did.
But, in hindsight, the manager was right. The lack of, for end-users, visible progress(as in features, not release scheme numbers) harmed the project-as-a-whole more then my brilliant software in the end could cure.
With that experience I think the typo3 project needs a manager or managing body wich should explicitly not be formed of developers alone. It should have the steering power to correct if the developers do their thing and go astray.
The current "forky" sithuation and its acceptance within the developer teams is not good. Nor do I agree with its use as a argument to continue with it.
But who am I? Just an old fashioned corporate kind a developer...
@ Steffen Gebert: I don't see how Sander is "putting bricks" into anybodies lives. He has put names to some of my very concerns. I know, that when you do the heavy lifting, you kind of feel like you should be exempt from critique, after all you put all your hart in it.
But in the past I have had friends who always agreed with me and friends who where willing to smack my face if I needed to wake up. Consider who I still regard as my friends?
March 11, 2012
22:23
Thomas, the "bricks" aren't his comments. It's something severe behind the scenes.
I don't share most of your opinions. Phoenix isn't the direct successor of TYPO3 v4. Think of the situation, when it would be released as v5. How would you create a multi-language site for instance? When v5 has no support for multi-language in the beginning - would your client buy a version 4 web site (if he cares about versions), although a version 5 is already released (will he believe you that v5 doesn't support a certain requirement, yet, or will he think you're incapable?).
Other than that: No, we will not all move to v5 immediately and "help them finishing quickly".
Steffen
I don't share most of your opinions. Phoenix isn't the direct successor of TYPO3 v4. Think of the situation, when it would be released as v5. How would you create a multi-language site for instance? When v5 has no support for multi-language in the beginning - would your client buy a version 4 web site (if he cares about versions), although a version 5 is already released (will he believe you that v5 doesn't support a certain requirement, yet, or will he think you're incapable?).
Other than that: No, we will not all move to v5 immediately and "help them finishing quickly".
Steffen
March 12, 2012
00:32
@ Steffen - you really don't know what you're talking about and since we have never meet each other and you never asked me about my side of the story, please stick to the facts I bring up and keep in topic.
March 14, 2012
21:25
@JWeiland: Saw the cmscrawler.com statistics and I have to say that taking Joomla or WP as serious CMS competitors to the fields and enterprise websites TYPO3 can be used to run makes me laugh, really. But ofc such statistics tend to produce a wrong image of the market "standing" of TYPO3 on mid-to-big-sized projects.
I worked on openTEXT and FirstSpirit projects and TYPO3 performes very well to superior and is the only open source enterprise cms that deserves that name. Dont tear down such a great product with that kind of discussions and versioning confusion...
I worked on openTEXT and FirstSpirit projects and TYPO3 performes very well to superior and is the only open source enterprise cms that deserves that name. Dont tear down such a great product with that kind of discussions and versioning confusion...
March 15, 2012
11:09
@Thomas Noest
I think we have left the part of the discussion where actual points matter.
Now it like it has been often (sadly):
It's not about WHAT you say, it's about how you say it.
I have to admit that I like the more "direct, less blabla" way better since it saves time for everyone but hey... people are different.
I think we have left the part of the discussion where actual points matter.
Now it like it has been often (sadly):
It's not about WHAT you say, it's about how you say it.
I have to admit that I like the more "direct, less blabla" way better since it saves time for everyone but hey... people are different.
Sorry, comments are closed for this post.
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Sounds like an opportunity to clean up some parts in the TYPO3 4.x Core and Backend - curious to see what will happen for TYPO3 6.0.
Ah - and let me add the link to typoscript 2.0 sketch 5 years back:
http://buzz.typo3.org/people/robert-lemke/article/first-sketches-of-typoscript-20/